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Old 11-13-2014, 12:06 PM   #21
Texican89
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I love bowfishing gar, and will continue to as long as it is legal. I might even buy an airboat. Texas two guns, don't let em get to you.
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Old 11-14-2014, 08:40 AM   #22
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It's the same old argument, time and time again. They hate us because we don't usually eat what we kill. Most guys will eat the alligator gar though.
I can't argue a moral issue, I was raised the same way, but rough fish are vermin, same as coyotes and pigs. Is it sporting to catch these fish? Sure, same as hunting coyotes and pigs, but they don't seem to getting eaten, nor are the populations declining. So if it's legal and not hurting the population then leave the sport alone and we'll not infringe on your sport.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:00 AM   #23
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They hate us because we don't usually eat what we kill. Most guys will eat the alligator gar though.
It's not that y'all don't eat what you kill....it's that you don't eat it, nor use it for any legitimate purpose at all, which is illegal. Your sole purpose is to kill. Most guys eat the alligator gar they shoot? I know you think you know how many people enjoy your "sport", but not all of them belong to your clubs, or attend your tournaments. There are way more of them out there than you think. Did you take a run down the trinity after the bowfishing tournament this year? There were way too many floating gar with holes in them. Speak for yourself on how you follow the rules...that's fine, but don't speak for the majority that you don't even know exist. I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again...I have no problem with someone legally taking a fish and eating or utilizing it for a legitimate purpose.

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rough fish are vermin, same as coyotes and pigs.
I'm glad you finally said this is what you believe. When you finally decide to educate yourself on these fish and realize that they aren't "vermin," maybe you can see why our views differ. Coyotes kill livestock, pets, etc. Pigs destroy farm land. What kind of problems are the Alligator Gar causing in Trinity, Sabine, etc?

You know, every time you try to argue you like to bring up the fact that Kirk used to commercially fish for gar, or use analogies that don't even relate to Gar. It will be a cold day in Hell before you can come up with one logical way to justify your "sport". Carry on...New laws are coming, and the bowfishermen brought it on themselves.
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Old 11-17-2014, 02:25 PM   #24
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I don't disagree that bowfishermen brought it on themselves. However, do we outlaw flounder gigging because some gig too many? Do we outlaw deer hunting because some spotlight? I say let TPWD enforce the laws they think think they need.

To be clear, the rough fish I speak of are the carp and lesser gar species. Just because someone likes catching them on R&R doesn't change the fact that they are rough fish. The alligator gar, like I said, a lot of guys I know of, eat them. Yes, I know there are more people that bowfish than are in our club.

And sir, I don't pretend I can change your mind anymore than you think you can change mine. I'm just getting the other side of the story out there for those on the fence or like you said, the uneducated.
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Old 11-18-2014, 12:11 AM   #25
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However, do we outlaw flounder gigging because some gig too many? Do we outlaw deer hunting because some spotlight?
Again, that's not comparing apples to apples...

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I say let TPWD enforce the laws they think think they need.
I totally agree. Why is it that the bowfishing community as a whole has tried their best to prevent any new laws concerning bowfishing to be established by TPW?

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Just because someone likes catching them on R&R doesn't change the fact that they are rough fish.
I understand that. But the fact that a fish is not considered a Game Fish does not necessarily make it vermin, harmful, or non-useful in an ecosystem, and y'all need to stop spreading those lies. I saw a guy wearing a shirt that said something about bowfishing saving game fish, which is pure BS. Bowfishermen can't justify shooting thousands of fish by saying they are doing the lake a favor.

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I'm just getting the other side of the story out there for those on the fence or like you said, the uneducated.
I really think the best thing for your sport would be to start educating the bowfishermen. Most people that oppose bowfishing probably wouldn't have a problem with it if you all followed the rules and only took what you needed instead of uselessly killing thousands of fish and dumping them to rot for no reason. You know, TP&W wouldn't have to impliment new rules if people would think about the consequences of their actions and what kind of message they send. I don't think we are the uneducated ones....We know what we see when we go to the lake.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:52 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by slimjim1987 View Post
Again, that's not comparing apples to apples...

Is it not? Your letting the results of a few bad "apples" make your mind up about the sport.


I totally agree. Why is it that the bowfishing community as a whole has tried their best to prevent any new laws concerning bowfishing to be established by TPW?

Because the new rules for alligator gar were not based on sound science. Even when the studies were done and completed, the commissioners did not listen to or even understand their own studies.

I understand that. But the fact that a fish is not considered a Game Fish does not necessarily make it vermin, harmful, or non-useful in an ecosystem, and y'all need to stop spreading those lies. I saw a guy wearing a shirt that said something about bowfishing saving game fish, which is pure BS. Bowfishermen can't justify shooting thousands of fish by saying they are doing the lake a favor.

Tell that to the guys in the mid-west and our northern brothers that have to deal with constantly muddy lakes due to an over abundance of common carp. How about our Texas brothers from Lake Falcon who see their bass population being eaten up by too many alligator gar. What about the invasive asian carp species, the big head and slivers?

I really think the best thing for your sport would be to start educating the bowfishermen. Most people that oppose bowfishing probably wouldn't have a problem with it if you all followed the rules and only took what you needed instead of uselessly killing thousands of fish and dumping them to rot for no reason. You know, TP&W wouldn't have to impliment new rules if people would think about the consequences of their actions and what kind of message they send. I don't think we are the uneducated ones....We know what we see when we go to the lake.
Yes, as I already stated, there are bad apples. People that are uneducated and don't see the consequences of their actions. As far as the rules, my friends and myself follow the rules set forth by TPWD.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:54 PM   #27
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You know what? This is not bungle in the jungle! This forum is for the Bow Fisherman in the 2Cool community I am really getting tired of reading all this ****! I come here to see what people have caught or shot and not what I am reading up above. Take all this BS to the appropriate forum.


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Old 11-18-2014, 10:07 PM   #28
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Is it not? Your letting the results of a few bad "apples" make your mind up about the sport.
My point was that you can't compare deer and flounder management to Gar management. That's what I meant by "not comparing apples to apples". Am I letting a few bad apples make up my mind? It takes way more than a few bad apples to create the scenes I see every time I go to the river or the lake.

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Because the new rules for alligator gar were not based on sound science. Even when the studies were done and completed, the commissioners did not listen to or even understand their own studies.
Come on Tony, we both know that none of those studies were done during an active spawn. I shouldn't have to tell you that! I thought you were there and a part of it. It's just another example of trying to use irrelevant studies to support your side. I've said this to you multiple times! We don't have any proof that allowing the harvest of Gar during a spawn would affect the population either way. By the way, Science is science. There isn't right science and wrong science. Your science is not different than my science. We both have the same studies. Bad interpretation and application in real life is where we have a problem.

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Tell that to the guys in the mid-west and our northern brothers that have to deal with constantly muddy lakes due to an over abundance of common carp. How about our Texas brothers from Lake Falcon who see their bass population being eaten up by too many alligator gar. What about the invasive asian carp species, the big head and slivers?
I'm not going to talk about the Big heads and the silvers, since those are a totally different topic and doesn't apply to what we are talking about. Common Carp are considered Naturalized in our state. They have been here over 100 years, and during that time they have lived along side our native fishes just fine. I think you are referencing the shallow lakes up north that have problems with the common carp, and if they have a problem then I'm all for doing something about it. HOWEVER, lets not use studies that don't apply, just like your last point....We are talking about Texas here. Texas doesn't have an overabundance of very clear lakes to begin with, but almost all of our clear lakes have a healthy population of carp. Guess what....almost all of our trophy bass lakes also have very healthy populations of common carp. The bass feed on the fingerling carp every year. If common carp are so detrimental to plants, then why are we stocking grass carp in lakes where there are already plenty of common carp? My point is that while some fish cause problems in some ecosystems, them don't cause problems in others. Besides all that, even if the carp were as bad as you say, bowfishing couldn't even put a dent in the population on a large lake....So yet again I say, don't act like bowfishermen are doing the ecosystem a favor by removing these fish when there wasn't a problem to begin with, and you aren't taking enough out to make a difference anyway. Stop grasping for straws to justify your love of shooting fish, yet not utilizing them.

As for the Gar on Falcon....It's amazing how you only hear what people say when it benefits your sport. This is exactly the way the original rumors about gar got spread. So the bass fishing isn't as good on Falcon, but we are seeing more Gar. So that means the Gar must be eating them? Yes, the Gar play a part of it, but lets look at some real facts that we know....

1. Low water levels have plagued that lake, which causes fish crowding.
2. Bass fishing efforts increased 135% from 2006-2011.
3. Bass Harvest increased by 95% during that period.
4. Half the lake is in Mexico, and virtually unmanaged.
5. Seems like the bass fishermen are always complaining about the amount of trophy fish that people don't release back into the lake.

I'm pretty sure they are going to increase the Gar limits on that lake, which is probably a good idea. I've always supported varying limits based on populations. My point is that people need to look at the facts, and see that you can't base your opinion on what a few angry bass fishermen have observed, and then use it to support bowfishing. I realize that Gar will throw up their stomach contents when stressed, but in the gar that did have stomach contents in the study of falcon bass were only around 8%.

Tony, I really don't want to argue about it any more. All I'm asking is for the misinformation to stop. Y'all like to kill for sport, and if your moral compass allows it then so be it. Just don't lie to people and try to make your sport look better by acting bowfishermen are helping out our ecosystem.

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You know what? This is not bungle in the jungle! This forum is for the Bow Fisherman in the 2Cool community I am really getting tired of reading all this ****! I come here to see what people have caught or shot and not what I am reading up above. Take all this BS to the appropriate forum.
Sorry if I offended you, but me and TTG have a little bit of a history. As long as bowfishermen aren't spreading BS, I leave them alone. So, if you don't want me around, then take note of that. I actually really enjoy seeing the pictures of Gar that are shot when they are followed with pictures of the meat on a grill. Gives credit to the ones that say they eat them.
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Old 11-18-2014, 10:09 PM   #29
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:56 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by slimjim1987 View Post
My point was that you can't compare deer and flounder management to Gar management. That's what I meant by "not comparing apples to apples". Am I letting a few bad apples make up my mind? It takes way more than a few bad apples to create the scenes I see every time I go to the river or the lake.

Come on you sound like my daughter? Always, every time, forever, you can't be serious. If there is that big of a problem where you fish then I need to come down there with some guys in green because it's way out of hand.


Come on Tony, we both know that none of those studies were done during an active spawn. I shouldn't have to tell you that! I thought you were there and a part of it. It's just another example of trying to use irrelevant studies to support your side. I've said this to you multiple times! We don't have any proof that allowing the harvest of Gar during a spawn would affect the population either way. By the way, Science is science. There isn't right science and wrong science. Your science is not different than my science. We both have the same studies. Bad interpretation and application in real life is where we have a problem.

I'll buy that. Bad interpretation and application by people that are using emotions to make rules.



I'm not going to talk about the Big heads and the silvers, since those are a totally different topic and doesn't apply to what we are talking about. Common Carp are considered Naturalized in our state. They have been here over 100 years, and during that time they have lived along side our native fishes just fine. I think you are referencing the shallow lakes up north that have problems with the common carp, and if they have a problem then I'm all for doing something about it. HOWEVER, lets not use studies that don't apply, just like your last point....We are talking about Texas here. Texas doesn't have an overabundance of very clear lakes to begin with, but almost all of our clear lakes have a healthy population of carp. Guess what....almost all of our trophy bass lakes also have very healthy populations of common carp. The bass feed on the fingerling carp every year. If common carp are so detrimental to plants, then why are we stocking grass carp in lakes where there are already plenty of common carp? My point is that while some fish cause problems in some ecosystems, them don't cause problems in others. Besides all that, even if the carp were as bad as you say, bowfishing couldn't even put a dent in the population on a large lake....So yet again I say, don't act like bowfishermen are doing the ecosystem a favor by removing these fish when there wasn't a problem to begin with, and you aren't taking enough out to make a difference anyway. Stop grasping for straws to justify your love of shooting fish, yet not utilizing them.

This was brought on by the t-shirt comment. There are some instances where it holds water. Is it the most efficient method? Not likely. Can it make a difference? If applied correctly yes. Take Lake Conroe and Lake Jacksonville Grass Carp removal for instance. The R&R guys did a bang up job on Conroe too, I might add. I still wish we could have had a BBQue with us all together though. I don't believe we bowfishermen make enough difference to the rough fish population to ever be detrimental or effective to give that shirt or saying any salt, but then again, a shirts a shirt and sayings are sayings.

As for the Gar on Falcon....It's amazing how you only hear what people say when it benefits your sport. This is exactly the way the original rumors about gar got spread. So the bass fishing isn't as good on Falcon, but we are seeing more Gar. So that means the Gar must be eating them? Yes, the Gar play a part of it, but lets look at some real facts that we know....

1. Low water levels have plagued that lake, which causes fish crowding.
2. Bass fishing efforts increased 135% from 2006-2011.
3. Bass Harvest increased by 95% during that period.
4. Half the lake is in Mexico, and virtually unmanaged.
5. Seems like the bass fishermen are always complaining about the amount of trophy fish that people don't release back into the lake.

I'm pretty sure they are going to increase the Gar limits on that lake, which is probably a good idea. I've always supported varying limits based on populations. My point is that people need to look at the facts, and see that you can't base your opinion on what a few angry bass fishermen have observed, and then use it to support bowfishing. I realize that Gar will throw up their stomach contents when stressed, but in the gar that did have stomach contents in the study of falcon bass were only around 8%.

I thought a study showed more than that? I have one from Lake Guerrero that shows more than that, but as you say it's not relevant to Texas. I believe that what it shows is that the alligator gar are opportunistic feeders and that they will feed on what ever is most abundant and easy to catch. So my theory is that in low water times, such as you mention, which occurs in the upper reaches of most of our rivers, the gar can have an impact on game fish populations.


Tony, I really don't want to argue about it any more. All I'm asking is for the misinformation to stop. Y'all like to kill for sport, and if your moral compass allows it then so be it. Just don't lie to people and try to make your sport look better by acting bowfishermen are helping out our ecosystem.

Slim, I don't think we are arguing anymore. We're sharing our different opinions and I think that is a good thing. Of course it always takes some tit for tat before we really start having a conversation. I wonder why that is? Yes, we kill for sport and it's a bloody sport. There is no denying that. Yes, our morals allow for it, for whatever reason, but lets don't pretend that it carries over to deer hunting or other sports which we also enjoy, including some R&R fishing.



Sorry if I offended you, but me and TTG have a little bit of a history. As long as bowfishermen aren't spreading BS, I leave them alone. So, if you don't want me around, then take note of that. I actually really enjoy seeing the pictures of Gar that are shot when they are followed with pictures of the meat on a grill. Gives credit to the ones that say they eat them.
One more punch. So do you assume that all these deer hunters are wasting venison when all you see is the picture of them and the carcass? You can't eat all them horns anyways right?
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