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6ft Alligator gar

36K views 46 replies 24 participants last post by  Gatorgar 
#1 ·
Put the boat in right at dark and went looking for some flounder and reds. Fishing was slow and tide quit moving completely. Decided to head to our local night time gar hole. As soon as we pulled up we knew it was gonna be good. We saw multiple shooter fish now we were just waiting for one to screw up and role in front of us. After about 5 minutes a decent 4 footer rolled about 12yds from the boat. One of the farthest shots I've ever seen. We started trolling again headed for a spot we had just seen a big one role and sure enough she surfaced again.
 

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#31 ·
Come on you sound like my daughter? Always, every time, forever, you can't be serious. If there is that big of a problem where you fish then I need to come down there with some guys in green because it's way out of hand.
Tony, I'm not trying to make exaggerated claims. I'm not saying there is a huge pile of fish every time I go out, but there is evidence left in varying amounts the majority of the time. Whether it be Gar culled during tournaments, people showing up with boats covered in blood with no fish to show, or fish left at the ramp/floating down the river. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all bowfishermen are like that. I'm not even saying it's the majority. I'm saying it is a major problem, and if the bowfishermen want their image to change then maybe it would be best to take care of the problem on their side of the fence before they try to change the view on ours.

I'll buy that. Bad interpretation and application by people that are using emotions to make rules.
You view it as a knee jerk/emotional decision, when in reality it was a conservative measure to ensure we could maintain the current recruitment and harvest rates. I'm going to try to explain this the best I can, so please read this carefully. When managing any type of wildlife, the allowable harvest rate has a direct correlation to recruitment, or the number of individuals that survive to maturity/being harvestable. The more recruitment you have, the higher the harvest rate can be. For example, think about the different hunting seasons we have and how they correspond to the reproductive cycles of the animals. Texas Parks and Wildlife has established those seasons to allow maximum recruitment, which allows maximum harvest. Make sense? So, you can take data on the number of breeding individuals each year, and the number harvested each year, and from that they can determine limits, etc. They also don't expect everyone to get a limit, kind of like the same way that airlines overbook flights, since not everyone is going to show up. They also put laws in place to ensure that harvest rates are consistent, and that there are no statistical anomalies, or outlying factors that can skew that data to one extreme or the other. Okay, you know the study that you keep referencing about how we are below the maximum harvest rate? That study provided a lot of useful information, and was performed well. It gave accurate data that gave us insight our harvest rates, and what is maintainable. So, a limit of one gar per day keeps us under the maximum harvest rate, lets say, 99% of the time. I have not actually calculated it out, but you get the idea. The other 1% (an active, significant spawning situation) would be considered a statistical anomaly TO that study. In other words, by allowing harvest during that time, it could render results of the previous study that you mentioned completely useless since the harvest rate could be much higher than the original study showed. As a Biologist who has been trained for, and practiced a lot of research, I wouldn't consider the new law an emotional/knee jerk reaction. I would call it minimizing the number of variables/outliers/anomalies so that we can have confidence in the previous study, and an accurate understanding of our recruitment and harvest rates. That's the best I can explain it. There is no conspiracy here. If you really think about it, it benefits both rod and reel and bowfishermen by ensuring that all the data y'all helped obtain during that study can be used, and not be voided because of a variable being thrown into the equation. Honestly, and I really mean this, I hope what I just explained makes you feel better about the decision that was made.

This was brought on by the t-shirt comment. There are some instances where it holds water. Is it the most efficient method? Not likely. Can it make a difference? If applied correctly yes. Take Lake Conroe and Lake Jacksonville Grass Carp removal for instance. The R&R guys did a bang up job on Conroe too, I might add. I still wish we could have had a BBQue with us all together though. I don't believe we bowfishermen make enough difference to the rough fish population to ever be detrimental or effective to give that shirt or saying any salt, but then again, a shirts a shirt and sayings are sayings.
I'm not saying that bowfishing can't be utilized to manage carp populations in certain situations, and especially when it comes to triploid grass carp since they don't reproduce. And you are correct, bowfishermen and R&R fishermen did a great job on Conroe to help bring the population down to and optimal level. What I AM saying is that bowfishermen can't justify killing a bunch of common carp and dumping them in a hole in their backyard by saying that they are detrimental to our lakes, or making it sound like they actually have an affect on the population even if they were. I am morally opposed to killing for the sake of killing, with no other purpose. You aren't, and that's fine. But I'm sick of hearing bowfishermen tell people that they kill rough fish to help the environment, when in reality it's a way out of having to explain the wasteful killing that goes on here. If a bowfishermen feels like they have to lie to feel justified, what does that say? Say it like it is, that's all I'm asking for.

I thought a study showed more than that? I have one from Lake Guerrero that shows more than that, but as you say it's not relevant to Texas. I believe that what it shows is that the alligator gar are opportunistic feeders and that they will feed on what ever is most abundant and easy to catch. So my theory is that in low water times, such as you mention, which occurs in the upper reaches of most of our rivers, the gar can have an impact on game fish populations.
The study I saw of Falcon I'm pretty sure was 8%, and though they said that few fish had stomach contents, I don't know if they actually showed the data for the number. Feel free to post up the study if you have it, since I don't have time to dig it up. I think Falcon is the 6th lake in Texas that we have stomach content data on. The average between all of the others was between 3-5%. I know about the study you are talking about in Mexico, and you are right. I think the average was over 50%. Go back and look at that study and you will see that a lot of those fish didn't have any stomach contents, just like falcon. It would be interesting to see how the numbers lined up between the two different studies. However, Take a look at other available food sources on that lake.

My point on Falcon was that we shouldn't jump to conclusions, and use hearsay as fact to drum up points for one side or the other. Like I said, maybe they are eating more bass, maybe they aren't. But I posted some facts in my previous post that would definitely cause Bass numbers and quality to drop. I think the last electrofishing survey done also showed a lower abundance of bait fish than usual. Did you know that the Mexico side is basically unregulated? There is actually a quite large commercial fishery over there. I was surprised to find that out, and it kinda makes me wonder why we spend so many tax dollars stocking it.

I've said it before....Lakes should be managed individually for Gar. If they are overpopulated, raise the limit! I have no problem with that.

Slim, I don't think we are arguing anymore. We're sharing our different opinions and I think that is a good thing. Of course it always takes some tit for tat before we really start having a conversation. I wonder why that is? Yes, we kill for sport and it's a bloody sport. There is no denying that. Yes, our morals allow for it, for whatever reason, but lets don't pretend that it carries over to deer hunting or other sports which we also enjoy, including some R&R fishing.
Unfortunately, I feel like a large amount of the tit for tat is my words being twisted into saying something that we both know I didn't mean. I enjoy debating these topics, but I don't enjoy having to go back and clarify a lot of things that I say because I feel like other readers may not understand what I meant.

I would like to extend my apologies if I ever made any comment insinuating that bowfishermen were deer poachers or anything of that sort. I know others on here have made comments like that, and it's not right. I do have concerns as to what message we are sending to our kids when we don't utilize our kills for a legitimate purpose, but I don't believe that bowfishermen are the same ones that go out and night with a spotlight and shoot deer.

One more punch. So do you assume that all these deer hunters are wasting venison when all you see is the picture of them and the carcass? You can't eat all them horns anyways right?
I hope you are being sarcastic. I'm not asking for people to post up pictures of meat on the grill, or of them cleaning gar. I just like hearing people say that they saved the meat. Makes me feel better, and gives me assurance that there are more people eating them then I think. Not to mention, I see how many deer show up at the processing facility. You know, a brisket from a steer is one of the worst cuts of meat there is. If you sliced a piece of and tried to grill it, you would be very dissapointed. However, if you cook it right it's a wonderful thing. Both Gar and Carp can be cooked to something not only edible, but enjoyable. I think most people just don't put the time or research into doing it right.

One last note, to help everyone understand me...I don't want gar placed under a 20 year protection plan, which I think was mentioned by a previous poster, or anything like that. That would be stupid. Gar have been hunted for thousands of years as a food source. To have a healthy fishery, there must be an apex predator. Besides Alligators, Gar don't have very many predators once they reach a certain age besides humans. I am all for management, harvest, and utilization of our resources.
 
#32 ·
Outstanding. I think we see eye to eye, mostly. It's the blanket statements that we (all of us really) make that puts us at odds. But when it's really discussed rationally, we find that we are all sportsmen and are a lot alike. Although, we have those one or two things that we agree to disagree on. I am not opposed to regulated harvest, most of us aren't. What we were opposed too was 1 a day. It was originally proposed to close it completely. We felt and still feel that 1 a day is too stringent and unnecessary. We also feel that closing during the spawn is unnecessary, especially with a one a day rule already in place. And yes your explanation made since to me.

Speaking of regulated harvest. Let me ask you this. Since you don't oppose us eating what we kill, why not allow us to take catfish? Even at a reduced limit. Bear in mind though, that catfish showing up in these dumpings would no less tolerable to us than the dumpings now. We despise either. By us, I mean the respectful bowfishermen.
 
#33 ·
I think their concerns on the catfish was that they were worried they wouldn't be able to manage the size of what was harvested, since catch and release wasn't an option. I may be wrong though...I don't really remember what all was said.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. Maybe if they lowered the limit some to make up for the inability of a less experienced person to judge size? If I was bowfishing, I wouldn't want to have wonder if what I was shooting was legal. Kinda like antler restrictions on deer.....I've got one deer that I'm pretty sure is 13", but I'm afraid to risk it.

I really don't know much about this subject to be honest. Have y'all proposed bringing it back with a lower limit? If so, what was their response? If you don't want to derail this topic, you can PM me.
 
#35 ·
I got a idea just tell TPWD to let bowfisherman shoot all species of fish just like fisherman, then we wont be shooting the trash fish !! All my clients would rather shoot redfish over drum or stingrays, catfish over carp ? As for big gars i dont think they are in short numbers. I see lots of big ones in saltwater and fresh water but i do feel they need to be protected. But I see no reason what so ever not to allow bowfisherman to shoot redfish in texas.
 
#36 ·
What entitles someone to make a living shooting fish to start with?

We have too much technology at our disposal and too many people fishing to allow unrestricted harvest of fish. Including wasting natural resources like gar, stingrays and drum by shooting them with compound bows.

I'll go along with invasive species like carp but that's all I think should be legal to bow hunt.
 
#37 ·
The same thing that entitles someone to make a living Rod and Reel fishing. It's a service. You can save money, equipment and time by hiring a guide instead of dragging your own boat from out of state into waters you don't know. Also, if your new to the sport or encounter new species, I guide can stop you from messing up.

Besides, no one is asking for unrestricted harvest of sport fish. We should be held to the same "bag" as anyone else, perhaps even less, if they are that worried about it. Even a bigger minimum size to keep from having the "accidents" that concern people.
 
#38 ·
Awesome Gar!!!!

Captain, I took my son fishing and he wanted to try gar meat, He liked it, its all in how you make it up, We live in the pasadena area and if you ever get some that you dont plan on cleaning and eating, hook us up if yall dont mind, We would greatly appreciate it, Thats an awesome Gar!! Must a been a hell of a fight! One day I would like to catch one when my son is camping with his Boy Scout Troop and let them all try it as well. Thanks for the picture and keep on havin fun!! catfishingharry
 
#39 ·
Gar effects on game fish

Gar is fine eating, hot out of the grease... Or mixed in with gravy. Gar balls and Gravy.. Don't have the recipe, but I'm sure Google does...
Years ago, they used to have a Gar Rodeo out of Jack's Bay Arkansas, on the White River. Over there, they used special made jugs to catch the gar, then would somehow connect the line on the jug to a rod and reel, remove the jug, and let sport-fishermen fight the gar... And I'm told that they release every gar with a fresh chunk of 38 caliber lead in his head...

This was all based on the "fact" that gar eat their body weight in game fish every two days. Which would mean that the 200 lb. gar pictured somewhere above was eating 100 lbs. of crappie, bass, bream, trout, whatever, everyday...

Notice I say "fact." That seems kinda far fetched to me... Anybody here a gar biologist?
How much does a gar eat?
 
#40 ·
Anybody here a gar biologist?
How much does a gar eat?
As it turns out, my best friend from high school is a gar biologist... He has done extensive research on Alligator Gar, in Arkansas... Pretty sure he wouldn't approve of this thread... Used to hunt, fish, and drink beer with him back in the day, but kinda think he might of gone environmental... Haven't talked to him in years, but... I sent him an email, to get his expert opinion...
 
#42 ·
No, his name is Adams.
He said that there's no research that he has found that studied amount of a gar's diet. Although, he said they are scavengers and predators, and will literally eat anything. Fish, birds, crawfish, and there has even been one documented case of a small diesel engine part found in gar stomach! :)
So... I'm thinking that the Gar Rodeo was done in an effort to remove the gar from Arkansas water, by local consent...

By the way... I don't oppose shooting them! Y'all have fun!
 
#43 ·
I dont kill anything just to kill. I understand if pesting of a creature needs to be done like hogs and such but it doesnt have to be waisted. There are many people who struggle to buy food or worse. My dad used to shoot a truckload of carp and gar back in the day then drive to east side of town where people would come running to take all of the fish. I enjoy bowfishing but I will not dump it back in the water.
 
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