[SaltwaterParadise]

If recreational fisherman dont impact the resource then why does TPWD close season on flounder in November? Why do they prohibit fishing certain places (deep refuge areas) during hard freezes. Why do they have a season for Red Snapper and AJ?
Certain freshwater fish on certain bodies of water have restricted bag limits and then increased back to higher more liberal limits

Fair points to consider in this discussion whether recs have a meaningful impact on a resource

 

[Sgrem]

Here are some other fair points to consider.

Flounder limits have gotten very tight very quickly. Then to full closure. Do yall really think that is in response to over harvest by recreational rod and reel fisherman? Or because we have had terrible environmental conditions not supportive of flounder spawning and not conducive to successful recruitment....

Not to mention the snapper debacle by the feds. How are the flounder supposed to make it offshore to spawn at all Oct-Dec??????? Ask any offshore fisherman how thick thr snapper are during that prime flounder time. The flounder get annihilated during their spawn by the over population of snapper.

Then there are the shrimpers....ever seen a shrimpers by catch. EVERYTIME they pull their nets.....EVERYTIME.

If you have never really analyzed a shrimpers by catch on the deck of that boat then you shouldnt really comment here. If this describes you then educate yourself. I guarantee you would very much change your view immediately. If you saw one bycatch cull on the deck of a shrimp boat..... now add up how many times they cull like that and add up all the shrimp boats.....

Here's a hint...one shrimpers cull by catch one time is more than most of yall have ever had in your boat in your lifetime.... ONE!!! Pls go see for yourself.....

Do they ever give the commercial guys tighter game fish restrictions? Or just the recs???? Think about it....

Do they stop the dredging of the ship channels during the flounder run? Ever seen how many flounder are blown thru the dredge? Why close just the recs but not stop the habitat degradation???

 

[SaltwaterParadise]

Grem, really enjoy most of your posts As a respected guide who willingly shares great info here, which is appreciated…

here’s a a followon question to your position “recs have NO meaningful impact on trout population”

are you saying individual conservation efforts can NOT make a meaningful difference if there’s broad rec buyin (given the growing numbers pursuing a common resource)?

Most here agree that environmental factors have biggest negative impact — which is out of individual rec fisherman control

 

[Sgrem]

Yep. When the limit was ten trout the very average weekender rec (not the expert recs) would catch 2-3....

When they changed the limit to 5 the average rec still catches 2-3....

When they changed the limit to 3 the average rec still catches 2-3....

And when they change the limit back to 5 the average rec will still catch 2-3...

And when they go to 3 coastwide for Texas (it's coming due to public pressure)......the average rec will continue to catch 2-3.....

 

[Sgrem]

TPWD changes these limits based on public pressure. Their own data sets do not support these changes.

TPWD has offered to change redfish limits back to 5 per day at least twice. Their numbers support this. The public shot it down wanting to keep it to three .... every time it has been proposed.

They work for the state and for the anglers and for the resource. But ultimately the money comes from the people. So they give the people what they want.

They will propose changes based on their numbers......and give the people what they are screaming for anyway. Even if they data does not support it.

Fish kill pics during the freeze are very emotional and disturbing.... but those couple days of sad fish kill pics on those rare events are no different than dock kill pics celebrated daily on social media. Why the difference? Because one can garner support for tighter limit changes.

Tighter limits lead right on to the next tighter limits. 25-10-5-3 to closed days coming soon....

Do not DO NOT support it. Catch and release all you want. Most of my customers do. I would say 80+% of my customers catch and release. But DO NOT support the limit changes.

 

[Davidsel47]

Lol exactly! It’s like a fat person suing McDonald’s for being unhealthy, yet they keep eating it.

It’s real simple, if people think guides are the reason for trout population loss then they need to quit hiring them. Nobody is putting a gun to their head. And the public seeks out the guide, not the other way around. But they won’t stop bc most can’t catch fish on their own anyways. Maybe they would be happier if all fish were harvested commercially and sold at the grocery stores. Then they wouldn’t need a guide to get their fish and the resource would really be strained.

I don't think anyone is blaming guides when they say recreational fisherman. In fact I would venture to say that guides and their clients make a small percentage of folks fishing everyday. If anyone thinks just because they hire a guide they are coming back with a box of fish every time is just plain dreaming. I've been out with some of the top guides on the coast and it wasn't always homeruns, I've had my fair share of trips where it was the struggle bus. As far as most people cant catch on their own, I don't think that's true anymore. There's enough free content all over social media and there's content you can pay for that will get you on fish in no time.

 

[SaltwaterParadise]

Appreciate your reply…but see rec impacts differently on population decline & conservation

Good to have 2coolers discuss given the large user base

1. Where does avg rec catch = 2-3 come from?

historically, the notion was 95% of trout were caught by 5%.

today, times are different based on most recs I know. Recs are more capable based on vids, technology, networks, increase use of night lights, etc….they can catch their limit & likely exceed (and release).

2. And you’re right, Limits typically don’t increase after a reduction, as TPW is quite aware of increasing pressure based on increasing license sales (they know environmental impacts will continue , coupled with increased rec impact)…

3. and you’re right, too, that habitat improvement /continued commercial monitoring would be helpful.

4. As a guide, I’m a bit surprised to hear that individual rec conservation would have no meaningful impact. I would agree if most recs didn’t catch or has low catch rates. Today, most recs are more capable than you give them credit, imo

 

[Coolhhd]

I said this on a different thread, but the problem is the TPWD not the fisherman. They have caved to political pressures to appease the public and not fix what is clearly a mismanagement of the trout fishery with the slot, hence the decline from increased fishermen and the fish not having enough broodfish for recruitment replacement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sgrem]

Appreciate your reply…but see rec impacts differently on population decline & conservation

Good to have 2coolers discuss given the large user base

1. Where does avg rec catch = 2-3 come from?

historically, the notion was 95% of trout were caught by 5%.

today, times are different based on most recs I know. Recs are more capable based on vids, technology, networks, increase use of night lights, etc….they can catch their limit & likely exceed (and release).

2. And you’re right, Limits typically don’t increase after a reduction, as TPW is quite aware of increasing pressure based on increasing license sales (they know environmental impacts will continue , coupled with increased rec impact)…

3. and you’re right, too, that habitat improvement /continued commercial monitoring would be helpful.

4. As a guide, I’m a bit surprised to hear that individual rec conservation would have no meaningful impact. I would agree if most recs didn’t catch or has low catch rates. Today, most recs are more capable than you give them credit, imo

It's a good discussion for sure. And everyone will have their opinion based on their experiences.

For example.... the people YOU communicate with about fishing are likely good accomplished fisherman. Some of them may be on 2cool and social media around fishing groups. The people I communicate with.....and I guarantee I interact with more "fisherman" than you do by the nature of what I do..... those "fisherman" are NOT accomplished or good. That's why they are seeking to go with someone who knows how. They may only fish once or twice a year. They do not have luck on their own. By numbers they are the average rec.... your circle of fisherman are not average recs.....they know how and fish often. The majority of license sales are NOT the guys that know how. Most are occasional fisherman at best and don't have a lot of success. By numbers that occasional fisherman is the average rec.

So expand that. Most really good accomplished fisherman that can stroke those trout day in and day out don't fish the weekends. Stay with me here for this point. The good guys are not fishing weekends. The average rec is flooding the boat ramps on weekends.....with some mostly limited success.....

Now.... when does TPWD do their ramp surveys? On the weekend when there are more "fisherman". Their dock survey will tell ya that people are catching less. So they adjust the limits based on the average rec with limited success.

See how that can not be accurate representative of what is being caught? Just as TPWD is not going to survey the ramp after a Trout Master type tournament.....cuz those guys are experts.....not accurate.

Neither survey is representative or valuable.....yet that weekend average rec survey is all they have to go by.

So I give the above average recs here and pursuing the info on fishing formats and informative videos a lot of credit. They are in the minority.

Hear about the increased instances of bad behavior on the water and increased instances of terrible boaters and disrespectful fisherman? Those guys are not stroking the trout.....but more and more of them pressuring the fish with their boat. So the fish move and escape. Just as many fish as there have been but they are spooked away from where we want to catch them. We mistakenly take that as there are fewer fish. And more anglers.

It's skewed. But if you look at the whole the legal limit rod and reel impact is not killing fish off.....

It's habitat loss. I will give you an indisputable fact... tell me how the snook limits are affecting the numbers of snook in Galv or Sabine?

Laughable right? We don't have the habitat and environmental conditions to support that population on the upper coast. Lower coast however they can target snook every day. If they raise the snook limit from 1 to 50 is that going to negatively affect the snook population on the upper coast? Ridiculous... Simple really.

 

[Jkmoore03]

I don't think anyone is blaming guides when they say recreational fisherman. In fact I would venture to say that guides and their clients make a small percentage of folks fishing everyday. If anyone thinks just because they hire a guide they are coming back with a box of fish every time is just plain dreaming. I've been out with some of the top guides on the coast and it wasn't always homeruns, I've had my fair share of trips where it was the struggle bus. As far as most people cant catch on their own, I don't think that's true anymore. There's enough free content all over social media and there's content you can pay for that will get you on fish in no time.

Most anglers can’t catch, that’s a fact. And when they do catch they usually don’t catch limits. There’s a ton of people, with boats, that still charter guides bc they don’t fish well. I took a guy that has a boat and his captains license out fishing last week bc he wanted to get his gf and kidson fish lol. Great guy and good boater, but not a great fisherman. Just hang out at the ramp or cleaning stations and see how many people come in with what. And it’s not that it’s super hard to just catch slot fish, but most don’t pay attention to details or able to adjust to conditions. Like most griping on here that their “spots” aren’t as productive anymore. Fish are there and there’s plenty to catch, but you need to understand how/where to go get them.

 

[WillieT]

It's a good discussion for sure. And everyone will have their opinion based on their experiences.

For example.... the people YOU communicate with about fishing are likely good accomplished fisherman. Some of them may be on 2cool and social media around fishing groups. The people I communicate with.....and I guarantee I interact with more "fisherman" than you do by the nature of what I do..... those "fisherman" are NOT accomplished or good. That's why they are seeking to go with someone who knows how. They may only fish once or twice a year. They do not have luck on their own. By numbers they are the average rec.... your circle of fisherman are not average recs.....they know how and fish often. The majority of license sales are NOT the guys that know how. Most are occasional fisherman at best and don't have a lot of success. By numbers that occasional fisherman is the average rec.

So expand that. Most really good accomplished fisherman that can stroke those trout day in and day out don't fish the weekends. Stay with me here for this point. The good guys are not fishing weekends. The average rec is flooding the boat ramps on weekends.....with some mostly limited success.....

Now.... when does TPWD do their ramp surveys? On the weekend when there are more "fisherman". Their dock survey will tell ya that people are catching less. So they adjust the limits based on the average rec with limited success.

See how that can not be accurate representative of what is being caught? Just as TPWD is not going to survey the ramp after a Trout Master type tournament.....cuz those guys are experts.....not accurate.

Neither survey is representative or valuable.....yet that weekend average rec survey is all they have to go by.

So I give the above average recs here and pursuing the info on fishing formats and informative videos a lot of credit. They are in the minority.

Hear about the increased instances of bad behavior on the water and increased instances of terrible boaters and disrespectful fisherman? Those guys are not stroking the trout.....but more and more of them pressuring the fish with their boat. So the fish move and escape. Just as many fish as there have been but they are spooked away from where we want to catch them. We mistakenly take that as there are fewer fish. And more anglers.

It's skewed. But if you look at the whole the legal limit rod and reel impact is not killing fish off.....

It's habitat loss. I will give you an indisputable fact... tell me how the snook limits are affecting the numbers of snook in Galv or Sabine?

Laughable right? We don't have the habitat and environmental conditions to support that population on the upper coast. Lower coast however they can target snook every day. If they raise the snook limit from 1 to 50 is that going to negatively affect the snook population on the upper coast? Ridiculous... Simple really.

So according to this, why even have a limit? Because most fishermen can’t catch fish anyway, right? That just doesn’t make sense IMO. No doubt there are many reasons that have contributed to the decline of the fishery, but to discount the fact that the number of people that fish have increased dramatically from the 1960-1970’s haven’t contributed to the decline is being naive. And people certainly can’t regulate themselves so there in lies the need for regulation, limits.

 

[Jkmoore03]

So according to this, why even have a limit? Because most fishermen can’t catch fish anyway, right? That just doesn’t make sense IMO. No doubt there are many reasons that have contributed to the decline of the fishery, but to discount the fact that the number of people that fish have increased dramatically from the 1960-1970’s haven’t contributed to the decline is being naive. And people certainly can’t regulate themselves so there in lies the need for regulation, limits.

No doubt more people mean more fish harvested. But I think what SGrem was saying is that the “rod & reel” from anglers is not what has dramatically impacted the trout population in a negative way. And by setting tighter daily limits it’s only hurting the angler and is a drop in the bucket to what is really hurting the trout population. Like using a spoon to remove water from a sinking ship. Sure it helps, but it won’t turn the situation around.

 

[Davidsel47]

At the end of the day its all opinion. If you poll all Texas guides with a guides license over 15 years I bet the numbers would still come back 50 / 50 that agree / disagree the impact made by rod and reel.

 

[WillieT]

No doubt more people mean more fish harvested. But I think what SGrem was saying is that the “rod & reel” from anglers is not what has dramatically impacted the trout population in a negative way. And by setting tighter daily limits it’s only hurting the angler and is a drop in the bucket to what is really hurting the trout population. Like using a spoon to remove water from a sinking ship. Sure it helps, but it won’t turn the situation around.

If there were no limits would it exacerbate the situation?

 

[Sgrem]

Yes of course there is a need for limits.
The question of the OP poll is: Can recreational fishermen, when following limits, create a negative impact on speckled trout pop?

The answer is no. Following the limits, recreational anglers cannot negatively affect the fish populations with rod and reel. And never have.

The point is that limits aren't hurting the fish numbers.....so why are limits the only thing getting tighter? No commercial restrictions are infinitely more taxing on the resource....and do the most long term damage. Habitat loss are infinitely more taxing on the resource....and do the most long term damage.

Yet people allow it and willingly give up their own fish limits.....as if they are helping. It's misguided.

 

[SUPfish]

Trout populations, just like every other fish, can be negatively impacted by over harvest. The legal limits can be too much given things like cold weather event, algal blooms, increased numbers of fishermen in a given area, etc. Bag and size limits are based on data collections and should be flexible given changes in the impacts of recreational fishing, habitat degradation, low spawning, etc.

 

[sideshow]

There are the things we can control and the things we cannot control. We cannot control Mother Nature. We can choose to not keep as many fish as we once did. Keeping fish 110 percent affects the population. If there are 100,000 trout in the bay and one dies then there are 99,999 left. Then that one trout that was 15 1/8 inch long will get replaced in a couple years or however long it takes them to get that size. No one on here is 100 percent right or 100 percent wrong there are too many variables.

 

[DC31]

This is an excerpt from an article I found in Texas fish and game magazine

During the August through December tracking period, fishing licenses in Texas exploded. 32,717 more resident year-from-purchase all water licenses were sold than the previous year, a more than 50 percent spike. Resident freshwater fishing licenses were up over 23 percent, saltwater up nearly 15 percent. Total fishing packages and stamps were up about 24 percent.

“Our license year runs from September through August of each year…In license year 2020 there was a total of 1,561,867 fishing licenses sold compared to license year 2019, when 1,293,468 fishing licenses were sold. These numbers include all freshwater and saltwater fishing packages and endorsements combined,” said Brian Van Zee, a regional director for TPWD’s inland fisheries division.

“This was a record-breaking year in terms of the number of fishing licenses sold and it’s encouraging to see people getting outdoors and enjoying the great resources of the state. You might be able to say that people and families getting outdoors and spending more time together is one positive outcome"............
People showing up at the cleaning table or ramp with 2-3 fish doesn't necessarily represent the average weekend fisherman sucess rate. There are soooo many good fisherman who live on the bay, canal, bayou, water. I'd venture to say their sucess rate is higher and they catch fish under their lights. There are many many houses on the water and there's usually a boat hanging in the sling and lights on their piers.
I'll get real philosophical here. Law of averages. More people less to go around. Less people more to go around.

 

[Sgrem]

Consider this.... ONE trout will release 3 MILLION TO 20 MILLION EGGS PER YEAR! Just one trout .... ONE!!!!! So imagine their wasn't the overwhelming commercial impact and big money commerce gobbling up all the habitat. Would you say then it is reasonable to consider....that without the commercial impact and without environmental extreme rare events....ONLY recreational rod and reel.... that it is possible the trout can spawn and reproduce faster than rod and reel recreational limits can take them out?

Any reasonable per would agree.

But then comes the argument about recruitment being low. And the success of those eggs growing to maturity being low....

Ok I agree. Are those factors due to rod and reel? Or commercial and habitat loss?

AGAIN!!!! ONE trout will release 3 MILLION TO 20 MILLION EGGS PER YEAR! Imagine if the commercial impact could get out of their way....

How can anyone argue against that limits are the deciding factor given the above specific parameters....

Start with this in your calculator.... 4million to 20 million eggs per year for every trout in the water....then talk about the licenses sold as shown above.....then the daily limit.... the math will compound up quick.... you will see the massive massive discrepancy in the math. Now after your limits x licenses calculations where is the additional impact coming from? The discrepancy is massive yall.....

 

[sideshow]

Totally agree with you on how many eggs are released per year. It still doesnt immediatley replace the one legal size trout that was killed. If you are ok with catching limits of 15 inchers year after year then that makes sense. I guess what Im shooting for is one day being able to go out and catch 100 20-25 inchers again versus 100 14-16 inchers like now days. Also I agree with you that rod and reel is a drop in the bucket compared to Mother Nature but it 110 percent has some impact. That being said what should the legal limit be? Who really knows? Trout arent commercially harvested are they? If you kill a limit of trout how long before those keepers are replaced with more keepers...not hatchlings? How many trout are there really? So many questions.

PS. Grem love that a majority of your customers are catch and release...that is a HUGE help!