nice breakdown. glad my truck is diesel. wish my boat was too......

 

For another data point. My Fountain with a 225 optimax went from 2.7 mpg to 2.2 mpg.

 

we were just talking about this yesterday at work.... some people that are pushing for ethanol based fuels can't seem to understand there isn't enough farm land to produce the volume needed to compete with crude oil. The other thing is...are you REALLY helping the environment if you actually using MORE of this "clean burning" fuel?

gasoline with MTBE burned clean... that's the reason it was approved by the EPA before it was voted down (sounds a little similar to good ol' kerry).

Now we're using more gas, that emits probably the same amount of emmissions per gallon.... but we're burning additional gallons, thus actually making the environment worse.

GOOD JOB EPA!

 

Another Myth

Ethanol is not at all the environmental benefit that the EPA wants us believe it is. Your breakdown was exactly correct, Ethanol will reduce your fuel mileage. The reason prices have gone up, is that it costs more to make the additives that go in Ethanol that it does to make the petroleum additives.

Plus, in any of those "EPA Studies", do they ever tell us how much fuel it takes to convert corn into Ethanol ?? Do they think it just happens when you leave corn in a bucket for a few days. It think it takes more fuel to convert corn into Ethanol than is saved by mixing the finished Ethanol into gasoline. But the politicians can campaign about how they are helping the environment !

 

I read somewhere...

...that it requires more net energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol will yield when used as fuel, and that yield is far less than a gallon of gasoline. I suppose that is why we are seeing all these declines in MPG.

Seems rather counterproductive to me. Except for the producers, of course.

Ahhh, life with an out of control, mindless group of government bureaucrats whose only function these days seems to be the feathering of their own nests and sophomoric power games.

We lose. As Jesse James of motorcycle fame would say, "Pay up, sucker"!

Bob :hairout:

 

this is what i heard and my take on the situation. . . the E-10 like y'all said is better but when it takes more in the end, it's probably just as bad.

the reason why . . and someone correct me if wrong . . . is b/c E-10 does not lubricate the engine as well as normal ole gas does; thus, it requires more gas, burns hotter, and has to work just a bit harder to get the same output in the end.

Those tests that they do to justify the product are not fabricated, they are just manipulated enough to where the data can be produced to look like it's better

anyone else hear that or agree? and what about the older engines . . . i'm sure it was looked into and researched but do y'all foresee E-10 ever causing problems or negatively effecting them in the long-term use of it???

 

Not new news...

Not sure this belongs in tthe bluewater board but...

You get less energy out of burning ethanol than MTBE, thus your mpg drops. Ethanol is also more expensive to make than MTBE and more difficult to transport to market, which also adds to the price per gallons equation.

What I can figure out is why are we pushing corn ethanol over sugar cane and beets. A huge part of the expense of corn ethanol is converting the starch content into to sugar to be even able to make alcohol. Cane and beets do not need this step.

What's the problems then? The government giving into agriculture lobbies. We had a huge surplus of corn. So the government pays people to not grow corn (and a lot of other things too) to prop up prices and then votes to subsidize ethanol production from corn.

Our sugar industry has tariffs to protect its pricing from imported sugar. With their protected pricing and ability to sell all they make, they have no interest in producing ethanol from cane and beets although they could do it cheaper than corn.

It's not about fuel economy, protecting the enviroment, or eliminating dependence on foreign oil. It's about putting money in their pockets and getting re-elected.

 

E-85 is at Kroger for $2.47 a gallon in Pearland. That cost is significantly lower than the 2.94 I paid this morning for Regular unleaded.

That is .47 cents lower than regular unleaded. That is $23.50 less to fill up my boat if it would run on E-85, and 11.75 less each time I fill up my SUV. That is $1820.00 less a year than what I am paying to drive each year. Even if I lost $800.00 of that due to poorer gas mileage that is still a $1000.00 savings.

If we can produce enough E-85 to take some demand off of oil we should see prices come down just due to supply and demand basic economics.

We are in a 16 million barrel a day oil deficit in the US. I would think anything to help reduce our demand would drive prices down.

Honestly even if my gas mileage sucked I just am tired of being held hostage by the Middle East.

E-85 turns the tables on oil consumption. At that point that is a large enough percentage to reduce oil consumption if it can be mass marketed. I here Sam's and Walmart is going to pick up E-85 at the beginning of next year.

Since this is on the bluewater board. How about them Marlin!

 

E-85 is at Kroger for $2.47 a gallon in Pearland. That cost is significantly lower than the 2.94 I paid this morning for Regular unleaded.

That is .47 cents lower than regular unleaded. That is $23.50 less to fill up my boat if it would run on E-85, and 11.75 less each time I fill up my SUV. That is $1820.00 less a year than what I am paying to drive each year. Even if I lost $800.00 of that due to poorer gas mileage that is still a $1000.00 savings.

If we can produce enough E-85 to take some demand off of oil we should see prices come down just due to supply and demand basic economics.

We are in a 16 million barrel a day oil deficit in the US. I would think anything to help reduce our demand would drive prices down.

Honestly even if my gas mileage sucked I just am tired of being held hostage by the Middle East.

E-85 turns the tables on oil consumption. At that point that is a large enough percentage to reduce oil consumption if it can be mass marketed. I here Sam's and Walmart is going to pick up E-85 at the beginning of next year.

Since this is on the bluewater board. How about them Marlin!

I'm being sick of being held hostage by the people in our own country that refuse to drill, produce and refine in new areas. Granted, there will come a day when oil is no longer feasible.... but it's not today.

People in California, Florida, etc.. refuse to allow new exploration, production or refining...so maybe they should pay a luxury tax on fuel sent to their states.
Since Texas produces and refines a huge percentage of the nation's fuel, maybe we should be getting a break here.

 

Interest Responses!

I put this up on the Blue Water Board because even though this does affect everyone, it puts additional expense (as if we need more) on us Blue Water Guys.

Thanks for the responses, so far some very interesting points and insights by Kyle1974, BrianP and Dutch! Ya'll have delved into this a lot deeper than I was anticipating.

Predator22 you are correct and I am all for it!
but as you stated
"That is $23.50 less to fill up my boat IF IT would run on E-85"

Here is the problem my Truck/Boat will not run on E-85 and to my knowledge there is not a boat that will. So those theoretical savings are not applicable at this point in time. Not to say that we don't need to point ourselves in the direction, but not with the voo-doo ecomonics and reasoning behind what we are being lead to believe at this time.

FishDByrd said it best "It's not about fuel economy, protecting the environment, or eliminating dependence on foreign oil. It's about putting money in their pockets and getting re-elected"

It appears to me that this is just atypical knee jerk reaction by the EPA and the government for their lack of insight to OUR problem.

Keep in mind that we have been made aware of our dependency on oil foreign and domestic back in the early 70's (that's was 30 years ago!) and reality shows that little to nothing has been done to alleviate the situation.

Food for thought!

In the past 30 or so years we have gone from long hand arithimatic to high powered computer, cell phones, SAT TV, DVD recorders/players to name a few but I still can only get 17 mpg from my truck or 2.5 mpg from my boat. What's wrong with this picture!

 

If I am not mistaken, MTBE is not banned in most states and not federally banned. Due to liability concerns, refiners chose to stop producing it and adding it to gasoline.
See the last couple paragraphs in this article.
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/31993/story.htm

Now, where can I get MTBE and straight gasoline and mix my own?

 

Kyle, I would agree with you your point too. We produce 7 million barrels a day in the US we are the third largest oil producer in the world, and because of our pinko greeno liberal whacko's we can't drill on 2/3 rds of our land and water in the US.

 

Fuel Additives

Just curious:
I have the same issue --- Bad gas mileage! Has there been any research into any over-the-counter fuel additives that would increase fuel efficiency? If so, is there enough cost savings to justify of purchasing these additives and would they harm the engine over an extended period of time?

 

FWIW

I have a 2003 Dodge with Hemi

my average fuel consumption pre-E10 was 12.2 city 13.6 highway

I put in a K&N Filter right about the time Houston area switched to E10. My average is now 12.9 city / 15.9 highway (a little better if I stay below 70)

 

My understanding was that the reason MTBE was going to not be used by oil companies in fuel anymore was because Congress refused to grant them immunity for liability for environmental polution risks associated with its use. I understood there were some rumblings about them being sued and they asked Congress for immunity. When Congress said, no, the oil companies said basically, we'll show you..... and then used this as an excuse to jack up fuel prices... just another excuse. This is just what I remember seeing. Congress could have granted that immunity and probably should have for national security reasons if nothing else. But honestly, for what its worth, I think what is unacceptable are the large profits by oil companies. I think gas stations and suppliers are getting stuck in the middle and their profits are not increasing but the refiners of gas are making a killing. A "real" investigation needs to go into this issue by somebody that can answer the questions. When every Exxon station in Houston goes up overnight by the same amount, its very hard for them to argue that they all got supplied a new tank full of gas overnight and they "had" to pass it along to the customer. I saw this happen in one night. I know because I drove all the way across town on the Beltway one morning and saw what happened.... overnight at every single Exxon had exactly the same price from Humble to Katy and they all went up overnight... makes you wonder... can somebody say "anti-trust" or "price-fixing"... seems like somebody really should investigate this... unfortunately, I doubt the Bush administration is going to do anything or cares... loyalties and all.

 

My understanding was that the reason MTBE was going to not be used by oil companies in fuel anymore was because Congress refused to grant them immunity for liability for environmental polution risks associated with its use. I understood there were some rumblings about them being sued and they asked Congress for immunity. When Congress said, no, the oil companies said basically, we'll show you..... and then used this as an excuse to jack up fuel prices... just another excuse. This is just what I remember seeing. Congress could have granted that immunity and probably should have for national security reasons if nothing else. But honestly, for what its worth, I think what is unacceptable are the large profits by oil companies. I think gas stations and suppliers are getting stuck in the middle and their profits are not increasing but the refiners of gas are making a killing. A "real" investigation needs to go into this issue by somebody that can answer the questions. When every Exxon station in Houston goes up overnight by the same amount, its very hard for them to argue that they all got supplied a new tank full of gas overnight and they "had" to pass it along to the customer. I saw this happen in one night. I know because I drove all the way across town on the Beltway one morning and saw what happened.... overnight at every single Exxon had exactly the same price from Humble to Katy and they all went up overnight... makes you wonder... can somebody say "anti-trust" or "price-fixing"... seems like somebody really should investigate this... unfortunately, I doubt the Bush administration is going to do anything or cares... loyalties and
all.

I understand everyone's frustrations when it comes to gas prices.... but making a comment to price fixing because all fo exxon's stations went up in one day to the same amount..... what's the difference between that and walmart going up on a 16 oz box or rice krispies, in every store they own? I'd be willing to bet that most big companies set prices across the board, rather than a station by station basis...

It's been said on this board dozens of times.... but oil companies are making huge profits, mainly because they're huge companies... exxon's 9 billion dollar profit was to the tune of about a 10% profit margin...I wouldn't call that excessive.

The bottom line is, SOMEONE has to earn more than any other company in any given year. Why shouldn't it be an oil company? If not... then we'd all be raising hell about walmart making "too much".... or bill gates.... or joe blow's ethanol refinery.... it's ALWAYS going to be someone.

 

1. Corn alcohol is meant for consumption on combustion.

2. If they really wanted to "save" the world they would be pushing BioDiesel and selling diesel powered everthing like they do in Europe.

Biodiesel can be produced for about .70 to 1.00 per gallon.

Anyone got a diesel outboard?
I can see it now.... twin turbo 4 banger that gets 10-12 mpg on your boat while making 250 hp all day long.

Where is it?

and btw Why is walmart gas by my house .10 more than the walmart 10 mile away?
Why is gas cheaper in Waco, or even out of state.
We make the stuff for cryin out loud. It should be .30 cheaper here.

Rant over

Saulnier

 

Could ya'll imagine if we were able to buy outboards that ran off diesel or whatever cool new fuel we don't even know about, and get 10 to 15 mpg. Everyone and their grandma would be offshore and there would defineately not be anymore fish left after that. if money didnt hold me back I would be running over a thousand miles a week offshore.

 

I'm being sick of being held hostage by the people in our own country that refuse to drill, produce and refine in new areas. Granted, there will come a day when oil is no longer feasible.... but it's not today.

People in California, Florida, etc.. refuse to allow new exploration, production or refining...so maybe they should pay a luxury tax on fuel sent to their states.
Since Texas produces and refines a huge percentage of the nation's fuel, maybe we should be getting a break here.

Yeah - RIGHT - It would be a cold day in hell before anyone campaigned on THAT one. Hey, 2 of the biggest swing states, we are going to tax you more because you had the forsight to keep your states beautiful instead of turning them into a polluting eyesore.
You might as well run on a platform that taxes Mexican food in Texas for what obesity is doing to our helathcare system (and creating Greenhouse gasses)

 

Yeah - RIGHT - It would be a cold day in hell before anyone campaigned on THAT one. Hey, 2 of the biggest swing states, we are going to tax you more because you had the forsight to keep your states beautiful instead of turning them into a polluting eyesore.
You might as well run on a platform that taxes Mexican food in Texas for what obesity is doing to our helathcare system (and creating Greenhouse gasses)

It doesn't change the fact that we're paying a percentage of the costs it takes to get fuel to other states that have no refineries...

I still don't see how something is blocked because it could be an eyesore (ie drilling rigs 50 miles offshore that NO ONE can even see)

 

I understand everyone's frustrations when it comes to gas prices.... but making a comment to price fixing because all fo exxon's stations went up in one day to the same amount..... what's the difference between that and walmart going up on a 16 oz box or rice krispies, in every store they own? I'd be willing to bet that most big companies set prices across the board, rather than a station by station basis...

It's been said on this board dozens of times.... but oil companies are making huge profits, mainly because they're huge companies... exxon's 9 billion dollar profit was to the tune of about a 10% profit margin...I wouldn't call that excessive.

The bottom line is, SOMEONE has to earn more than any other company in any given year. Why shouldn't it be an oil company? If not... then we'd all be raising hell about walmart making "too much".... or bill gates.... or joe blow's ethanol refinery.... it's ALWAYS going to be someone.

Because Bill Gates did not TRIPLE his prices in a year on something that almost every American HAS TO HAVE in one capacity or another.

Because Bill Gates is not scape-goating the lives of our troops as a rationale for raising the cost of Gas. DO NOT BE CONFUSED - MARKET VALUE FOR GAS SETS THE PRICE FOR OIL - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Beacuse Bill Gates re-investes earnings into new and improved products for all of us instead of blaming that mean ol' EPA for everything under the sun.

Anyone ever question why gas prices drop by 10-15 cents a gallon everytime congress announces it is going to grill an oil exec?
Because they can!! It is NOT a "x amount over a barrel" figure.
Global demand did not spike to triple what it currently is overnight.

Anyone ever ask why the last refinery built in the US is older than I am? I'm 37, and it is the TC Valero plant.

IMHO the best thing that could ever happen to us as a country is $5 a gallon gas. Necessity is the mother of invention. Did ANY of you own a Toyota, Nissan, of Honda made ANYTHING before 1978? Remember the white flags at the gas stations? Getting up at 4:00 a.m. to go get in line? Only being able to get gas if you plates had an odd or even number?
Remember the Hondas that could get 50 mpg THEN - where the hell are those cars NOW?!?!?!

My father worked for Conoco at the time - there were DOZENS of tankers parked in the gulf FULL of oil that the oil companies would not let dock and offload their oil, yet we had a shortage that drove up prices?!?!?!?!?
They literlly SAT out there for WEEKS!!!

 

I see... so it's only OK to make profits on things we WANT, instead of something we NEED?

as far as oil... it's a GLOBAL commodity... go buy yourself a prius if you think it's going to make the world a better place. It doesn't change the fact that China is buying up as much as possible of EVERY NATURAL RESOURCE they can get thier hands on. it's not just oil. It's timber, steel, and gold. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad a china.

Oil companies don't set the price of oil... it's a commodity.

it's a little funny to me you're complaining about not having enough refineries, while the same time making comments about Texas being a "polluting eyesore". pretty typical....

are your annual N.I.M.B.Y. membership fees due soon?

 

Here is your simple answer.
Take 10 minutes, put down the big Oil kool-aid and watch.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

 

alright.. this is my last post....

I can see the future.... and in it, people like you will be COMPLAINING about "big ethanol"

LMAO.... I'm DONE!

 

Hey man - I brew my own beer. If I can build a still in my garage and call it an Ethanol plant, then you will never hear me b*tch about "Big Ethanol".
Of course I will have to call the Sprite or Cranberry juice an "Additive" instead of a mixer to get it past the revenuers!

LOL - I will be quiet now.
Sorry for all the rants - too much coffee in the afternoon.