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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Someone PMed me with a question about bedding barrels and I decided to answer them here so every one could get in on the discussion.
The rifle he asked about was a Rem 700 LSS in 708, but this applies to all of them.
There are several ways to bed rifle barrels, all of them will work on most barrels and none of them will work on all barrels.
I know that every one has heard that free floating is the way to go when bedding a barrel. The magazine writers heard it from the bench rest boys and have been preaching it as gospel ever since. There is a slight problem that they forgot to mention. To keep the bedding from changing from match to match, the bench rest boys use a minimum contact bedding between the stock and metal. They get some very amazing accuracy this way. What nobody ever mentions is the number of brand new barrels that they also throw away because they won't shoot accurately free floated. Most of these barrels can be made very accurate with a different method of bedding.
I have had barrels that would only group 3" free floating, shrink the group down to less than .5" when they were bedded all the way out to the forend. I have also had barrels that were just the opposite. I've seen barrels that would only give accuracy when there was upward pressure at the forend tip.
When some one asks me if they should bed their barrel, I tell them to check it out and see how it shoots. If it ain't good enough, then the right method of bedding it may help things.
Over the years, I've had some smart boys tell me that they had discovered the perfect way to bed all rifles, I figured they had a few more lessons to learn. I know a few of them got taught some of those lessons by a rifle barrel that didn't act they way they though it should.
I probably glassed 100 rifles a year for 30 years, and I still can't tell you which method will make all of them shoot. There were some I never did get the accuracy out of (but not many)and there were some that challenged some of the established rules for getting accuracy.
When synthetic stocks came along, they stopped most of the bedding changes that plagued wood stocks. However it didn't simplify the problems of finding out which way was best way to bed a particular barrel.
 

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CantRe Member
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I've got one for you Gundoctor, I have a Ruger KM77VT Mark II 25-06. I purchased the gun new in 1996. I reload, with almost every load I have, I get either a 3rd shot or 5th shot flyer that deviates to high and right. Without the flyer a dime can cover the holes at 100yds, the flyer deviates about 1/2 inch MOA. I've tried several different things to correct this-variations of charges, primers, bullets and action screw tight vs. loose. I've heard of Rugers having barrels that were suspect accuracy and figured I might have one of these. I use the weapon to varmint hunt and have had no problems hitting my game. My barrel is free floated and the stock is laminated. The action is not bedded either. My question is: Will action bedding or barrel bedding help me?? I know its not a clear cut answer but what is your opinion. Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Interesting problem you got there. Glassing the action may help. Glassing the barrel is anyones guess.
Your problem may not even be bedding related. The thing that puzzles me is you say its the 3rd or 5th shot and always high and right by about 1/2 MOA. Bedding fliers generally aren't that consistent in direction, unless its a bedded barrel that has too much pressure on it from one side. They also tend to happen randomly and not just certain # rounds in a group.
Here are a few things that aren't bedding related, that might also cause the problem.
1 Something in the scope is moving back and forth between two different "zeros"
2 Your barrel may have stress from manufacturing that is causing it to vibrate different on some shots. Ruger ain't my favorite barrels.
3 A primer not seated completely or seated so far it is slightly crushed may cause different points of impact.
4 A slight variation in how the rifle is held on the bench and where it is placed on the bags can change its point of impact.
5 A bullet that is marginally stabilized because its too long or two short for the twist rate of the barrel.
6 Damage to the crown.
7 The barrel may not be straight.
Some of these 7 things are easy to check and some are almost imposable to check.
Another thing to check, is make sure the action screws have plenty of room on the sides and don't touch the stock. The screw in the front of the trigger guard (the middle of the action) should not be tight. The screw in the front of the action should be tight, but not enough to crush the stock. The screw in the rear of the action can be either slightly loose or tight depending on the gun.
 

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Thanks for the info Gundoctor. Its not as much of a problem as it is something that has piqued my interest to fix, like I say when it comes to shooting game, its not a problem at all. The flyers tend to vary somewhat but first shot out of the case is 100% on target from trip to trip so I never really let it bother me until I get to the range. I haven't totally ruled out operator error, scope or reloading inconsistencies....lol. I know what your saying about Ruger barrels though but there are so many possibilities as to the problem, its like finding a needle in the proverbial haystack. Oh one thing I forgot to mention, it seems to have better groupings with flat base bullets as opposed to the boatails. I still produce some amazing groups even with the flyers and I do have a somewhat normal spread at 200 yrds and above. Thanks again.
 

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It seems to me that if you are dealing with accuracies of less than 1/2 moa. You are slicing nat hairs.

It could be something as simple as a small scar in the projectiles caused by your hand loader or possibly while chambering the bullet in your rifle.
 

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Me make a mistake.......Never......lol


Any other time I would say its operator error, for I know how I shoot. It just seems like I keep screwing up the same shot over and over. I never have seen that flyer on coyotes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
CHunter said:
Thanks for the info Gundoctor. Oh one thing I forgot to mention, it seems to have better groupings with flat base bullets as opposed to the boatails. I still produce some amazing groups even with the flyers and I do have a somewhat normal spread at 200 yrds and above. Thanks again.
Now there might be a clue to your problem. Boat tail bullets yaw more than flat base bullets. This yaw is actually a spiral by the base of the bullet. The base pulls the point out along the spiral also. This spiral becomes smaller and smaller as the bullet gets further from the muzzle. At some point the spiral is gone and the bullet has "gone to sleep". The faster the twist and the longer the bullet, the further it is to where the bullet goes to sleep. I've seen this show up as fliers in some very accurate guns.
The most extreme case I ever saw of this was a rifle that one of the instructors at gunsmithing school had. It was a 22 Barnes QT, which uses a 1 turn in 5&1/2' barrel(normal barrel twist run about 1 in 10) and 125 grain .228 dia. bullets. The first time I saw the rifle shot I was "not impressed" with its 6" groups at 100 yds. That same day I quickly changed my mind when the same rifle shot some 5" groups at 600 yds. I wanted to know what was up with this and got introduced to Dr. Mann's book, "The Flight of the Bullet". It took me several months to begin to understand what he was talking about. Another rifle that is fairly common to get better 200 yds groups than 100 yd groups is the Rem 700 in 6MM Rem with the 1 in 9 twist. I have seen several that shot quite a bit better at 200 than at 100. I have also seen some that didn't.
Most common calibers today, will go to sleep some where between 50 and 150 yds.

PO Ackley and Fred Barnes were good friends and they developed several wildcats together. One line of wildcats they developed was the QT or Quick Twist line. It consisted of the .228 and 6.5MM. The .228 use 125 gr bullets and the 6.5mm used 200 gr, both had 1 turn in 5&1/2 inch twist barrels which was the fastest twist that Ackley could make on his barrel making machinery. Barnes made the bullets as heavy as would stabilize out of that twist. Both calibers suffered from short range inaccuracy. At long range they were very accurate. Using liter bullets didn't work with the ultra fast twist because the rpm of the bullet was so high that they came apart at the muzzle. I saw my instructor at gunsmithing school, break both shoulders of a 6X6 elk at a estimated 650 yds with his .228 QT using Barnes 125 gr bullets. For a 22, it was a hell of a longrange rifle.
 

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We all have it coming......
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This is very interesting subject. But, you guys are talking WAY over my head.

Personally, I can lay a nickel to a quarter over 3 shots at 100 yards with my 300 mag and every deer, coyote and pig I ever shot with it...is DEAD!!!

That's the sum total of what I know about mine. :)
 

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CHunter said:
I've got one for you Gundoctor, I have a Ruger KM77VT Mark II 25-06. I purchased the gun new in 1996. I reload, with almost every load I have, I get either a 3rd shot or 5th shot flyer that deviates to high and right. Without the flyer a dime can cover the holes at 100yds, the flyer deviates about 1/2 inch MOA. I've tried several different things to correct this-variations of charges, primers, bullets and action screw tight vs. loose. I've heard of Rugers having barrels that were suspect accuracy and figured I might have one of these. I use the weapon to varmint hunt and have had no problems hitting my game. My barrel is free floated and the stock is laminated. The action is not bedded either. My question is: Will action bedding or barrel bedding help me?? I know its not a clear cut answer but what is your opinion. Thanks
LMAO!
Had a Ruger Number 1 in 22-250 that was consistant in throwing the third round.
Sold the rifle after two years of playing with it.
 

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Well I've got a brand new box of 115 gr Ballistic Silvertips I'm gonna try in the weapon next. Dont think the bullets are causing the problem, but you just never know. My Remeington 270 has better patterns but they're considerably larger, it shoots about 1 MOA. Thanks for the info guys!
 
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