[Walkin' Jack]

I went to the Marksman indoor gun range, in South Houston this afternoon with my new Glock 23. In .40 you have several options in bullet selection I have some Federal 155 grain Hydra-Shoks for use in the event of a home/self defense situation but for plinking, I have some Winchester 165 grain fmj ammo and some Remington 180 grain fmj, and it is these last two that I took with me today.

I was amazed to see the difference. I put up two bull's eye targets, side by side and fired a clip (10 rnds) of the 165 gr into the right target. Then repeated the same on the left target with the 180 gr. The difference in accuracy between the two was shocking! The 180 grain ammo was waaaay more accurate. I blew the center out of the bull's eye on the left target yet on the right target, using the 165 grain. I only had 2 bull's eyes and no 2 bullets went to the same hole. the grouping was about 4 1/2 inches.

When I put up the sillouette target, I fired 2 clips for a head group and 2 clips for a center-mass group. The head group was with the 180s and the center mass group was with the 165s. I was consistently a lot more accurate with the 180s, with a much tighter grouping and I am at a complete loss as to what the difference is. I can't believe that the heavier bullet is the most accurate. Is the difference something to do with the brand, Winchester vs Remington? Somehow that doesn't sound right either.

I hope someone can splain' me the answer.

 

[Moonpie]

It's not at all unusual for a firearm to prefer one kind/type/brand of ammo over another.
See it all the time. Don't worry....be happy.
As far as carry ammo goes, go STRICTLY with factory.
Even better is to find out what the local PD is carrying and use that.
The hydro-shok is a fine round.
180gr vs. 165gr. Pointless argument at CHL distances. Both are deadly.
Use the one YOU have the most confidence in. If it be the 180grainer go for it.

 

[CHunter]

I agree with MoonPie, every gun has its preferences. I have really been impressed with the Hornady XTP bullet line. The bullets really mushroom good. Flash and report might be some good things to think about also. I shoot a 9mm and Hornady has some 147 gr XTP, they're sub-sonic so the "crack" isn't nearly as bad yet a heavy enough bullet to keep the energy levels up. Congrats on your CHL and your new Glock.

 

[nasakid]

Defense Loads

Jack,

There are several types of ammo out there that are good self-defense loads. I prefer Corbon ammo. It's hot, performs well, and it's super accurate. Most of the LEO's in this area shoot Speer Gold Dot bullets. They use them b/c they will penetrate a windshield and keep on going with good performance. Most hollowpoints will not do that. They may penetrate, but don't have much to continue on with. The Gold Dots are pretty accurate too, and they're less $$ than the Corbon. Hornady XTP, Winchester Silvertips, Black Hills, Remington Golden Sabre are all good bullets. I'd stay away from Hydra-Shok bullets. They don't expand reliably. I've had a 165 gr 45ACP +P go right thru a wild hog b/c it didn't expand. I tend to use lighter bullets in the house and heavier ones on the road. For your 40SW, 135 gr in the house and 180 gr on the road would be what I would use. My 10mm uses the same bullets, just more powder

Let me know if you want to go shoot at PSC in Alvin with me sometime.

 

[Walkin' Jack]

Up-date

In the pic you see three different kinds of ammo in .40. On the left is Federal's 155 gr, HYDRA-SHOK, center is Remmington's 180 gr. jacketed hollow point, and far right is Remmington's I80 gr. Full Metal Jacket. I have not fired any ot the HYDRA-SHOK due to their cost (about $28.00 for a box of 20) Not pictured is 165 gr. FMJ. I fired up a box of those and never got any more. I explain why below.

One thing I've done is to run a side-by-side comparison of different ammos and check them, one against the other for accuracy and consistancy. And it surprises me to say it but we have a clear winner. I have varified these results by performing this test on three seperate occasions, just to make sure that my performance was not one of the variables. In every instance the results were exactly the same.

The run-away winner is the Remmington 180 gr. FMJ w/blunt bullet design. in distant second was the 180 gr. hollow point. and waaay back there in last place was the 165 gr. FMJ. As I said I have yet to fire any of the HYDRA-SHOK because of the expense. I suppose I will have to ... bite-the-bullet ... (sorry) and fire one clip to confirm the accuracy of this ammo.

I'm in a bit of a quandry as to which ammo to keep for home/self defense. Since the H-Ss are an as yet unknow quantity, right now it's between the highly accurate 180 gr, FMJ and the 180 gr. hollow point. I feel the hollow point would be the most effective but I'm also a firm believer in the old saying, "there's no substitute for a well placed round." Like, what good is a hollow point if you can't put it where you need it?

Any thoughts or comments? Has any one had any experience with the Federal 155 gr. HYDRA-SHOK? If so I'd be very interested in hearing about that. Thanks!

 

[Spots and Dots]

Pardon me for saying that a shot gun would be a MUCH better choice for home defense/safety.


With that said, it sure sounds like you are a heck of a shot. I always thought the HS were the way to go as well. In reality, I bet any of the bullets you mentioned would stop or slow someone way down.

 

[Walkin' Jack]

Pardon me for saying that a shot gun would be a MUCH better choice for home defense/safety.

.

I agree with ya! But I'm lousy at sheet rock repair! I consider myself average or a little better in my marksmanship. I did all my "testing" at about 20 to 25 feet. With the 180 gr. FMJ I get about a 2 inch pattern. On the others I get from 3 to 3 1/2 inch pattern ... EVERY time.

Inside my house I would never have to take a shot much over 10 feet. At that range I'm pretty sure that I could be effective with near about anything.

 

[FormerHR]

Let me start by saying I am in no way a firearms expert. I wear one daily at work and have probably an average knowledge, although some will question that. I carry a Glock 21 with 230 gr +P Corbons. You'll find every opinion in the world about bullet selection, slow and heavy, light and fast, 9 vs. 45 etc....that's all personal preference. The one agreeing point would have to be bullet type selection for defense.

A hollow point bullet is the only way to go for self defense...unless your fighting a war under NATO rules. The theory is simple...a hollow point bullet is designed to expand causing greater damage and dumping all of it's energy in the target, thus stopping your target more quickly. The optimum hollow point has the greatest expansion, with the most energy, without over penetration. Anything the bullet does outside of your target is wasted, from the standpoint of stopping your target.

A FMJ will hit the target, have no expansion, and minimal effects. It will simply drill a .45 caliber or 9 mm hole through your target with little or no damage to surrounding tissues. Without the expansion enhancing the energy dump you run into over penetration issues, thus increasing the risk to the innocents around.

Unless your doing a hostage rescue where a well placed shot to the two inch opening to the cranial vault is a necessity, a few inches left or right when aiming at center mass isn't going to matter. Get as many into that center mass area until that target stops, and cause the most damage you can doing it to make that stop quicker. The only way to do that is with a good quality hollow point. FMJ's are for the range.

 

[Walkin' Jack]

Thank you FormerHR! You are right on. I appreciate your concise, and well stated comments. I have long feared a round passing through the intended target and hitting an innocent bystander or damaging some one's property. I am apposed to magnum loads for home defense for that very reason. Magnum loads should be used only for hunting in my very humble opinion.

On the outside of the box of Remengton !80 gr. hollow points they say that each round is designed for "deep penetration and controlled expansion" really a vague description but it sounds good. I wonder how they compare to the HYDRA-SHOKs.

Anyway, thanks again for for your informed opinion. The FMJs will go in to the gun range ammo can before bed time tonight.

 

[nasakid]

Wj

WJ,

I don't like Hydroshoks due to inconsistant expansion in testing in gelatin. Visit www.ammolab.com and see the results for the 45ACP and 40S&W there. You can learn a lot from that site. I recommend you come down to the strip center next to Garden Ridge off NASA Rd 1 and I-45 and go to Pro Defense. They have all kinds of ammo, including Corbon. You got ripped off on those Hydroshoks. For 20, they should cost you around $15-18 out the door. The Corbons are in the same price range, and are a far superior load. Even the Speer Gold Dots are better, and they're even cheaper. DPS uses Speer Gold Dots. Do some shopping around, and you can save some $$. One reason your groups opened up with the self defense loads is b/c they are hotter loads. You'll have more muzzle flip with them, and they're harder to control recoil. The FMJ bullets are not loaded up as hot b/c they're target loads. They are easier to shoot more accurate. Also, the lighter the bullet, the less penetration. For home defense, go with a 135 gr bullet in your 40. It won't go thru the walls like the 180's will.

 

[JIM_D]

A word about Hydra Shocks

Jack,

I can only repeat what you have been already told....a well placed .22 beats a poorly placed .44 mag any way you want to slice it.

It has been shown time and time again that that if you spend A LOT of time practicing firing at close range (arm's reach) as soon as your weapon clears the holster, then when it really counts your first 2 rounds will consistantly go to the same spot as they do in practice no matter what kind of ammo you use

As for Hydra Shocks, I can personnally attest to the following story, I was there before it was all over with.

A few years ago there was a July 4th party that got out of hand in this area.

Little brother took offense to the police arresting older brother, and grabbed a shotgun.

Two officers, each carrying 1911's, fired at little brother.

Officer "A" 's round hit little brother in the ten ring. The bullet expanded and did what it was designed to do, and little brother ceased to be a threat to society.

Officer "B" 's round hit Officer "A" in the right arm pit, the bullet lodging in his liver. The bullet did not expand. Officer "A" walked into the E.R. insisting that he had been shot, the E.R. doc didn't believe him until he pulled off his shirt.
Officer "A" still carries that bullet lodged in his liver, he now works for a State Law Enforcement Agency in Austin.

Both officers were using .45 Hydra Shocks, bought at the same time, from the same store, and were from the same lot number.

I carry factory hollow points myself, but I keep in mind that they may not always perform as intended, and try to take that split second needed to dot the "I" where I want to.

 

[Dan20703]

All this talk about self defense ammo led me to this article, http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/sept97s&w40.html

Fairly interesting.

 

[gundoctor]

If it was me, I would use the same ammo that I practice with. DIFFERENT AMMO WILL SHOOT DIFFERENT IN YOUR GUN and in the middle of a self defense situation is no place to try to remember where "the good stuff" shoots, compared to what you normally shoot. Another important point to remember, don't consider any ammo dependable in your gun, until you have run through at least 1000 rounds of it with no problems.
If you develop the skill to put em where they go, you don't have to worry so much about if they expand. BTW, at normal pistol velocities, none of them will expand dependably. That includes premium brands, like Hydra-shock & Corbon + all the other high$ specialty stuff that is available.
Theres an old saying:
"2 between the tits, then one between the eyes. Then if they're still standing. Walk around behind to see what is holding them up".
And like a lot of old sayings, that one is very true.

 

[Walkin' Jack]

Thanks guy for the links and all the great info. I can tell you guys have a lot of deep knowledge based upon experience, the most valuable knowledge there is, IMHO. I appreciate y'all takin' the time to fill me in.

 

[FormerHR]

"2 between the tits, then one between the eyes. Then if they're still standing. Walk around behind to see what is holding them up".

That's funny! Also referred to as the Mozambique drill. Don't know how they came up with it, but it sounds cool. Went to a rifle class a few months ago and the instructor made it sound best with his voice inflection. That's another post though.

 

[FormerHR]

Spots and dots, I would have to agree.

This is the one that sleeps next to the G21.

 

[jimk]

Like FormerHR said, bullet design is critical to accomplishing your objective. I shoot an old SW 686 .357 with 130 grain JHP's for self defense. This load is "hot" but will not penetrate a San Antonio telephone book...it performs well and expands and shreds going in. On the other hand, I can shoot a mild 158 grain SWC or WC and it drills a hole straight through. If I were shooting hogs, I'd go for the penetration with the wadcutters...self defense gets the JHP. Isn't it interesting that a faster (hot) load shoots lower on the target than a mildly loaded round? I have to resight when shooting different loads.
Jim