2 Cool Fishing Forum banner

Food for Thought

2K views 22 replies 15 participants last post by  bountyhunter 
#1 ·
From the dawn of time man has hunted. In the beginning man hunted for food to feed himself and his family. As time marched forward, hunting became not only a source of food but also a source of income. Once money was involved, things turned very ugly as many were no longer hunters but had become nothing more than killers. This was a very dark period in the history of hunting, and until some fine folks stepped in and started to pass hunting laws and seasons things looked pretty bleak for some of the prized game animals we enjoy hunting today.

We now enjoy wonderful numbers of game due to the hard work of many fine folks over the last 100 years or so, but we face a new battle. We hunters find ourselves among the few, as there are currently far more non-hunters in this country today. We also find that there is a small group of people that are Anti-Hunting, and want to stop us from enjoying a tradition that has always been a part of life. True there are few of us that need to hunt to put food on the table, but we hunt because it is a tradition of mankind. It is a wonderful sport that requires skills that if lost, may never be recovered if they are not passed along to the next generation.

We also find ourselves in and age where hunting has become big business. Now I am not going to place judgment on this business, but in some cases it has placed a black eye on our beloved sport. It has also taken some of the skills involved and made them unnecessary for any “Joe” to kill a trophy animal if he/she has enough money. I am just not sure in my mind that this is the direction I want to see our sport taking, but again that is just me and my opinion. It seems to me if we truly want to pass along the tradition of hunting and the skills necessary to the next generation, then they need to be taught how to hunt, and not just how to kill.

I invite each of you to take a moment and think about what I have said. I know some of you will feel very strongly on this subject and will also voice your opinion, which I would like to read.

Derek
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Derek, It is what it is, and it ain't gonna change. A few positives.... at least we live in a time where people CAN afford to hunt like this. And we live in a country where you are able to be all you can be, and buy your own property and hunt it they way you like. People have been paying big money for trophys for a long time.
 
#4 ·
boomgoon said:
Derek, It is what it is, and it ain't gonna change. A few positives.... at least we live in a time where people CAN afford to hunt like this. And we live in a country where you are able to be all you can be, and buy your own property and hunt it they way you like. People have been paying big money for trophys for a long time.
I don't really have any issue with the people paying for the right to hunt. I just don't like the thought of hunting via a catalog, where you pick the deer you want to shoot before you get to the lease or ranch. Then they take you to where your deer is and you shot him. Might as well just load him in a box and put him on a UPS truck to your front door.

There is no skill involved in this type of hunting. The hunter needs not know about tracks or signs or feeding habits. Nor does the hunter need to know how to take care of their game after the kill. This is the issue I have, we are slowing losing or not passing along the skills needed to be a true hunter. Might as well just let that guy with the Internet Hunting do his thing, that way you can kill your deer from your lazyboy in your drawers and beer in hand. It is almost the same thing, just cheaper than having to fly or drive hundreds or thousands of miles and maybe get a little cold.
 
#5 ·
I'm with you Derek. But let's face it. We are light years away from our forefathers ambushing game with an atlatl in a matter of survival.
Even us guys that pattern the deer, look for sign, check the mast crop, rubs and scrapes, use non scent soap, attractants, consider moon phases, butcher our own game, use decoys, hunt food plots......oh well, maybe the main thing that has changed is the weaponry. The instinct remains intact.
It reminds me of the story of Ishi, the last remaining stone age man in N.A. He was discovered in norhtern Ca. at the beginning of the century and had no knowledge of modern ways. After becoming accustomed to modernity researchers convinced him to take them back to his hunting ground and show them how he made weapons and killed game. His main question was WHY??? We have more food than we can eat, why would we want to suffer through the old ways? I find that enlightening.

On the other point, about hunting becoming big business, it has been for a long time, just ask the mom and pop places in towns like Llano etc.
What I need to try and do is differentiate between the large acerage high fence places and the true supermarket shopping places, with deer catalogues etc. I think that is what most of us are instinctively opposed to. That is not hunting, it is offensive and iinsults our sensitivities.
I have said before that when high fence places first started they were exclusively the realm of exotic species. I had no problem with that, I liked the thought of African game roaming Texas. That has evolved in to places as small as a couple of hundred acres being high fenced solely for whitetail. That is a trend that I do not like.
 
#7 ·
bounty..I think you've got some good points here. This is my favorite one though: "It has also taken some of the skills involved and made them unnecessary for any “Joe” to kill a trophy animal if he/she has enough money."

You're exactly right.

Most of the big deer contests have little to do with the skill of the hunter. They've got everything to do with how many dollars per inch the guy was willing to pay to get a jacket or a plaque. (yeah..I know...I know.. Los Cazadores has a low fence section...). Hell... if I were willing to part with 20 grand, I could probably go whack a 180 class deer next weekend!

I think one of the best things B&C ever did was not allowing high fence kills in the book. Of course, it seems like certain contests have taken over and have as much, if not more glory to them than B&C ever did.

Like activescrape pointed out... the high fence thing really took off for the purpose of exotics, how people got away, and continue to get away with high fencing native game...I don't know. It's written in every legal game book that the deer are the property of the state, not the landowner. I guess money talks.

::::
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bountyhunter again.:::

good post man.
 
#9 ·
bountyhunter,

This is an old disscussion but still fun to debate. Let me throw a little gas on the fire.

If you are going to have a free enterprize maketplace and a free country. People are going to try and make money where ever they see the opprotunity. This is not all bad. We just have to legislate to protect the things (like deer, wilderness, waterways) that belong to everyone so that they are not abused and destroyed by individuals.

As far as the difficulty and skill required to hunt. I think that is up to the individual. I myself choose to hunt with a longbow these days. However, I do hunt over bait, and have on a couple of occasion hunted behind high fence when I judged it be still be fair chase. Every hunter out there as almost unlimited choices of modern tech to make it easier, and yet we all can decide for ourselves how to hunt. I for one, try not to judge someone else for his methods. If we talk about it, I will be glad to explain why I feel more accomplishment and pride for a deer take with bow over the deer I killed with a rifle, or the deer I killed stalking rather than in a tree stand, or whatever...you get the point. The amount of satisfaction is directly related to the amount of effort and difficulty of the accomplishment.

If a guy goes down and pays 20 thousand dollars and shoots a 200 inch buck in a 10 acre pen, it doesn't really hurt me (except maybe public perception of hunting). I know if you have been hunting in east Texas for years and never seen a buck that would score 130 it is easy to have horn envy, but I don't let that bother me. I don't respect his hunting skill, and the deer mount means nothing, but how am I hurt? It's his money and he knows how difficult (or not) that it was. He has to live with himself.

Okay, that all being said, let me close by saying. In my perfect world all deer would be wild and free to range. All high fences or things to deter wildlife would be illegal as the land belongs to the owner but the animals belong to public. Baiting and feeders would also (of course this would mean an economic crash for Texas as half the corn in the world falls on Texas each fall day). If these things come up for a vote, I will excerise my right, otherwise I will try to pass on my values to my children, have some influence on the people around me, but not worry about the guys who "do it their way".

Of course we need something to discuss while waiting for our next hunt :)
 
#10 ·
High fences and baiting are debates in themselves. I am not totally against either per say.

My only disagreement with High Fences is like some of you have said, traps native animals that belong to the public and not the individual landowner. Hunting high fence ranches that are 10k acres or more can offer a challenge in some cases, but again that is left up to the landowner. These little places that are high fenced and buy deer so they can breed and put them in a catalog for sell is where I draw the line.

As far as baiting goes I really don't have a problem because if it wasn't for hunters feeding the deer there would be some that starve. This especially true in some areas of the state that have bigger populations of deer. I have feeders at my property to give the deer a reason to come to my property. There are oaks and acorns but they only last so long. I am still in the mode of getting my property set up the way I want it. What I am doing is setting things up so that the feeders are not directly hunted, but that is taking time as I have a million baby pine trees on the place. In some spots the deer can 10 feet away and you will never see them. So I am still in the process of cutting trails for the deer and shooting lanes for the hunters (mainly my son and I). This could in some way be considered as cheating as well, but we are only opening up the trails the deer are already using and clearing some of the pines so you can see the deer on the trails from our stands. What you have to do, is pick the right stand/trail to set up on any given hunt, and so far the deer are winning if you know what I mean.

My son mainly learned how to hunt up in the Sam Houston National Forest, where I taught him how to scout and find signs. In fact the last few years we hunted up there he picked his own stands and did very well. He has really gotten better than the ole man, and that was proven opening weekend on our property as he was the only one to kill a deer. So in short I feel I have done my part of passing along the tradition, I hope one day my son will do the same.

I am not say that I am the only one that has done this or is doing this. You can tell from the many post that there are many 2Coolers passing along this tradition to their sons and daughter and that fact does my heart good. It give me hope that the true skills of hunting will not be lost.
 
#11 ·
bountyhunter,

I must not have made myself clear, sorry about that. Let me try, briefly, to clearify. I think it is great that you, me, and many others are teaching our kids the woodcraft and hunting skill....old school.

My point was not about baiting or high fences per say, it was about all the things that are now available to make it easier, which includes, but is not limited too....scents, scent control products, lazer sights, range finders, trail cameras, and the list goes on and on, and that each of us has to decide how difficult or easy we want our hunting to be. I think the cataloging and rasing/ranching of high end genticly engineered bucks is just an extention of all the rest, not different. Just another way of making it easier to reach the "goal".

I agree with your position and try to hold to my own standards, I just try not to be too judgemental of others who choose an easier way.
 
#13 ·
I think Chunky's feelings are right along the lines on my own.

I'm seeing a theme here and I don't see where losing or passing on the skills to hunt have any bearing on anything. The concern should not be over whether or not, due to technological advances, anyone has/doesn't have the skills to kill an animal the way the indians did. Within reason, I have no problem with how another hunter chooses to hunt a deer. Nor do I give a rat's arse how much he pays. Or whether it's behind high/low fence. It's his time, his money, his call. And I really don't care if he personally has enough skill to sneak up on a hamster in a cage. The issue that should be being discussed is how we are not passing on the necessary skills and ideals to our youth, so that they will care enough to even want to hunt. And have the ethics required to do it the right way. If it becomes all about the kill, then our heritage is lost. Hunting becomes just another ballgame, tv show or video game.

The bottom line is what are we doing to pass on this heritage to our youth? The fact is, just passing it on to OUR kids is not enough. We are are in the minority. There is not enough of US to make a difference with just OUR kids. We need to start working on ways to expose other kids, that don't currently have opportunity, to the sport. I offer kudos to all the hunting father's/mothers out there. But it's gonna take more!
 
#14 ·
TXPalerider said:
I think Chunky's feelings are right along the lines on my own.

I'm seeing a theme here and I don't see where losing or passing on the skills to hunt have any bearing on anything. The concern should not be over whether or not, due to technological advances, anyone has/doesn't have the skills to kill an animal the way the indians did. Within reason, I have no problem with how another hunter chooses to hunt a deer. Nor do I give a rat's arse how much he pays. Or whether it's behind high/low fence. It's his time, his money, his call. And I really don't care if he personally has enough skill to sneak up on a hamster in a cage. The issue that should be being discussed is how we are not passing on the necessary skills and ideals to our youth, so that they will care enough to even want to hunt. And have the ethics required to do it the right way. If it becomes all about the kill, then our heritage is lost. Hunting becomes just another ballgame, tv show or video game.

The bottom line is what are we doing to pass on this heritage to our youth? The fact is, just passing it on to OUR kids is not enough. We are are in the minority. There is not enough of US to make a difference with just OUR kids. We need to start working on ways to expose other kids, that don't currently have opportunity, to the sport. I offer kudos to all the hunting father's/mothers out there. But it's gonna take more!
Alright TP that is the original point I was trying to make. You have put my thoughts to better words than I did. We need to get the youth of this country involved, and just make sure they don't just think it is anyother video game.

Thanks

******You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TXPalerider again.******
 
#15 ·
The bottom line is what are we doing to pass on this heritage to our youth? The fact is, just passing it on to OUR kids is not enough. We are are in the minority. There is not enough of US to make a difference with just OUR kids. We need to start working on ways to expose other kids, that don't currently have opportunity, to the sport. I offer kudos to all the hunting father's/mothers out there. But it's gonna take more!
Hopefully your kids, his kids, her kids and my kids have told their peers of the fun they've had while hunting and possibly, when hinted to you the parent, you've taken a friend of your son or daughter hunting with you.

Perhaps more hunting video games would help; heck I shot a nice lion with a .416 Rigby while playing Cabela's Dangerous Game on the Sony Playstation 2 the other day; made me want to go on safari.

If you can't give your time to volunteer with organizations that promote hunting to our youth, then write a check; every little bit helps. Oh and if any of us are not members of the NRA; shame on you.

TH
 
#16 ·
I have been hunting for almost 40 years. I started hunting the National Forest and have hunted just about everywhere in Texas except the Northern part. Currently in South Texas. The progression has been to shoot a better buck every year but stay within some kind of budget. My wife may dispute this. It is human nature to always want to better yourself. Most of the deer I have shot over the years from the first 4 point to my 10 a couple of years ago have been trophys to me. I don't care where you hunt if that's what makes you happy then enjoy yourself. Things that make or break a lease: I have been on leases with a**es before and one of the 2 of us will be leaving the next year. I have been hunting with the same great group of guys for quite a while now and this is what keeps me going back. The camp life is more than half the hunt. Another must for me to hunt is taking my boys. I have taken them since they were little and one could care less but the other thinks he's Daniel Boone. During the early years I tried to explain everything I knew to them and teach hunting ethics. Once my youngest shot a rabbit and when we went to cook steaks that night he wanted to cook his rabbit. I told him he could eat steaks with us but he reminded me that I had told him that you shouldn't waste animals and you needed to eat what you shot. I watched him eat that rabbit with nothing but a smoke flavoring and I knew it had to taste allful but he ate every bit of it. I knew I had a true hunter on my hands. He is grown and still goes hunting with me almost every time I go and I would put him up against anyone with his skills and knowledge. I hope he passes this along to his kids. Hunting is a priviledge and a right, don't abuse it, downgrade it, or slob hunt or it will be lost forever.
 
#17 ·
bountyhunter said:
...I am just not sure in my mind that this is the direction I want to see our sport taking, but again that is just me and my opinion...

Derek
The direction I want the sport to go is in direction where we can legally continue to hunt... period. And it seems to me that there is enough "hunter bashing" going on within the "anti hunting" groups. Enough so, that we as hunters (shooters of game, killers or whatever other name people have for us) don't need to be passing judgement about how the other guy/gal gets their game. If it is legal, but not your style of hunting? then so be it... but these threads are getting old. This is JMO...

And that is all I have to say 'bout that!
 
#18 ·
El Cazador said:
The direction I want the sport to go is in direction where we can legally continue to hunt... period. And it seems to me that there is enough "hunter bashing" going on within the "anti hunting" groups. Enough so, that we as hunters (shooters of game, killers or whatever other name people have for us) don't need to be passing judgement about how the other guy/gal gets their game. If it is legal, but not your style of hunting? then so be it... but these threads are getting old. This is JMO...

And that is all I have to say 'bout that!
I was gonna jump in here with all my teeth and slobber flying til I read El Cazador's post. well said and I agree!!
 
#22 ·
El Cazador said:
The direction I want the sport to go is in direction where we can legally continue to hunt... period. And it seems to me that there is enough "hunter bashing" going on within the "anti hunting" groups. Enough so, that we as hunters (shooters of game, killers or whatever other name people have for us) don't need to be passing judgement about how the other guy/gal gets their game. If it is legal, but not your style of hunting? then so be it... but these threads are getting old. This is JMO...

And that is all I have to say 'bout that!
Awesome!! well said Caz...threads like these are getting old....SOS..different verse!!

Have sum green..

chief
 
#23 · (Edited)
El Cazador said:
The direction I want the sport to go is in direction where we can legally continue to hunt... period. And it seems to me that there is enough "hunter bashing" going on within the "anti hunting" groups. Enough so, that we as hunters (shooters of game, killers or whatever other name people have for us) don't need to be passing judgement about how the other guy/gal gets their game. If it is legal, but not your style of hunting? then so be it... but these threads are getting old. This is JMO...

And that is all I have to say 'bout that!
Guess you didn't read the whole thread. I was not bashing anything other than we as hunters are not doing enough to pass it along to our youth.

Yes I did say something along the lines that I didn't like the idea of mail order like hunting. Picking a deer out of a book in the rack size and price. However that really can't be considered hunting. I mean what exactly are you hunting, they lead you out to a pen the deer is in and you shot it. There is no hunting there, that is just down right killing. If that is what you want to pass along to the young people of the next generation, then hunting as a sport is doomed.

There are many top notch ranches that cost alot of money to hunt, and yes there is a trophy fee, but if that is would you want and can afford it great. Most of these places you have to do some kind of hunting, it is not always a sure thing. It might not be my cup of tea, but if it is someone else way, more power to him/her.

The whole point here was to get the youth of this country involved and teach them the best we can how to hunt. I know each of us may teach thing a little different, but that is alright just as long as the kids are learning what a wonderful thing we have. If more of the next generation doesn't get involved in the sport, then our numbers will decline again. That is the direction I don't want to see, that is what worries me. If it continues in that direction then the sport is doomed for future generations.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top