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Can I use cartridge X for animal Y questions ...

3K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  Syncerus 
#1 ·
I was poking around on another hunting forum and stumbled into a variation of a question that I've seen about 10,000 times:

"Can I use cartridge X for animal Y?"

In this particular case, the fellow wanted to know whether he could shoot a moose with a .264 Winchester, but the same question is posted on every hunting board on the Internet with minor variations.

"Can I use a .223 on deer?"
"Can I use .357 magnum on trophy boar?"
"Can I use a .45/70 on Cape buffalo?"
"Can I use a .44 magnum on grizzly?"

What's funny about the question is that every already knows the answer: a well placed bullet of any reasonable construction will usually kill your target. Of course, the person asking the question already knows that his cartridge is considered too small by the majority of the hunting community, but is looking for a justification to use it anyway. And there's always one guy who has killed a rhinoceros with a .22 Short to give encouragement. "Sure, use your .357 on that 11 foot bear, it'll be fine. My grandfather shot 17 of them with his old .380, so you're actually overgunned."

The simple truth is that modern firearms are amazingly effective, except when they aren't. A well placed bullet from almost anything will kill almost anything, except when it doesn't.

And when it doesn't is when you'll wish that you'd taken the .30/06 or the .375 H&H.
 
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#3 ·
i catch a lot of heat out at the ranch for using .300ultramag or .375h&hmag...imo I'd rather make sure I take the pig out clean...call me a woman, but I hate hearing/seeing an animal suffer then having to head shoot it to take it out. Rather have the long, clean shot that goes straight through.
 
#4 ·
Well let's make it four for four. Totally agree. I think your statement "we owe it to the animal" says it all.

By the way on that 45-70 for cape buffalo, with a Ruger #1 or one of the strong action 1885 browning/winchester high walls, the 45-70 can be hand loaded up to exactly 375 H&H ballistics on 300-350 gr barnes bullets, making it a very viable cape buffalo option, many have been shot with it, and it is becoming more and more acceptable to many PH's. 300 grains at 2400 fps doesn't know what gun it came out of, plus there is more frontal area .45 vs .375. The 45-70 has 3 sections in the reloading manuals: older 1873 springfields, modern 1895 Marlin levers, and strong actions like Ruger #1 and 1885 high walls etc.

THE "USE ENOUGH GUN" JAMMER
 
#7 ·
Well let's make it four for four. Totally agree. I think your statement "we owe it to the animal" says it all.

By the way on that 45-70 for cape buffalo, with a Ruger #1 or one of the strong action 1885 browning/winchester high walls, the 45-70 can be hand loaded up to exactly 375 H&H ballistics on 300-350 gr barnes bullets, making it a very viable cape buffalo option, many have been shot with it, and it is becoming more and more acceptable to many PH's. 300 grains at 2400 fps doesn't know what gun it came out of, plus there is more frontal area .45 vs .375. The 45-70 has 3 sections in the reloading manuals: older 1873 springfields, modern 1895 Marlin levers, and strong actions like Ruger #1 and 1885 high walls etc.

THE "USE ENOUGH GUN" JAMMER
A 300-grain .45 caliber bullet does not have the sectional density of a 300 grain .375 bullet. On balance I would prefer a heavier .45 (450-500 grains or more) or .416 (370-400 grains) bullet at 2100-244 fps but many, many have been killed ith the 300-grain .375.

The greater frontal area at lower section density will decrease penetration.

But use whatever you want that is legal, take lots of pictures, and have a great time.
 
#12 ·
If I had a ruger No. 1 .45-70 and I wanted to load it for Cape Buffalo I would take it out to 45-120 or .458 RCBS (assuming that the rib mounting holes are not too deep) and then load it to 450 Nitro velocities if safe in my rifle.

I know of a guy who shot one with a .300 Win Mag, but he did not plan it that way.

Would I hunt Cape Buffalo with a .45-70 if I had no other choice? Sure. I would take a spear if that were my only option. But it is not.

I have read other versions of the story you mention, but I was not there so I will not comment. No doubt the .45-70, properly loaded and in the appropriate firearm, can do almost anything you want.

As I said, use what you like, take a lot of pictures, and report back. There are energy minimums as well as caliber minimums in some countries, so stay legal.

Edit: The 450-grain .458 bullets, especially in monometal solids, are popular in the .458 Win Mag as they save powder space and give good sectional density.
 
#13 ·
The simple truth is that modern firearms are amazingly effective, except when they aren't. A well placed bullet from almost anything will kill almost anything, except when it doesn't.

And when it doesn't is when you'll wish that you'd taken the .30/06 or the .375 H&H.
A well placed bullet will kill 100% of the time, a misplaced bullet even from a 30-06 will not kill 100% of the time,
Here in Texas my .22 Hornet is all I need. I am 100% with it (19) and not one animal has taken a step after being hit by it. Its the only centerfire rifle I own. I used to use a .243 but after I bought my Hornet the .243 never came out again, so I sold it.
 
#15 ·
farthest shot has been 110 yds , closest was 15 yds. I neck shoot 90% of the time anyway, 100% of the time on deer with the hornet. Neck and head on pigs.

This 200 lb bruiser dropped with the hornet, he was rattled in and hit at 15 yds.



This pig was taken at 70 yds.



This is an exit wound on a spikes neck



Heres one my kiddo took, another neck shot, 45yds.



another one at 50 yds



I use 45 or 46 gr hollow points, at 2700 fps they do a number on them.
Sometimes I feel undergunned on long senderos down south but If I have to pass on a big buck a little to far out I will, you just need self control and dont take iffy shots.
But I am confident out to 150 yds on neck shots
I keep my kid to 50 yds with it, its not for begginers, but I have been doing this for 30+ years. I can kill them with a bow, no problem with this rifle, its too easy.
 
#16 ·
The thing is, I agree with you, Zrex. Almost.

I'm not a believer of bigger is better. I am a believer that conventional is better. It's been said that the conventional is what's left after everything else has been tried and found wanting, and I largely agree.

I really meant what I said in the original post about almost anything will work almost all the time with good shot placement. Modern firearms really are amazingly lethal. For whatever reason, it seems that everyone wants to get away with using a marginal caliber, that they know very well is a marginal caliber. Usually, they're fine.

Until one day something goes a bit sideways and all their well-laid plans go up in smoke. The point to be made is that the unexpected takes place in the field. Sometimes raw horsepower will bail you out; sometimes it won't, but it's sure nice if you've got it on tap.

I suppose the primary purpose of the original post was to illustrate the pointlessness of the "can I shoot x with y" posts. If you want to shoot animal x with cartridge y and it's legal, go ahead, be my guest. It's your game animal to lose. All the poster is really looking for is public agreement for a decision that he's already made, which is to use a cartridge commonly perceived as marginal.
 
#21 ·
Syncerus,

This is why I asked him what bullets he was using and how long his shots were because: his bullet at 2700 fps on a 125 yard shot and just a 15 mph 90 degree crosswind will move the bullet 3" laterally one way or the other. He's shooting what looks to be a handi rifle- nice little gun but mostly likely NOT a 1 MOA rilfe- probably more like 1.5-2 MOA, so now we have 5" of potential lateral error, and let's say that we don't shoot quite as accurately in the field as we do under controlled conditions at the range, and we add only one more MOA. We now have a potential 6" of lateral movement on a pretty small target if you're shooting necks or heads. And this all assumes that the target stays perfectly still, which might be a bit optimistic.

I don't like the odds.

Certainly can't argue with his results- those are pretty impressive kill pictures for those varmint bullets- especially that neck shot. By the way where was the entry wound, and where was the exit wound on that neck shot, very nice deer?

THE JAMMER
 
#17 ·
I would just add that since as far as I can tell there is only one kind of "dead" I do not believe that overkill is a valid reason to exclude a particular choice. I've used the gamut from .243 to .458 and for me they all have an application. If you pick up a .30-06 or a .375 you will seldom be undergunned. The two of them make a nice combo, although there are times when something larger is comforting.
 
#32 ·
The 22-250 will drop deer in there tracks with neck/head shots and with heart/lung shots but I would suggest neck/head...
I shot this guy with my 22-250 (varmint rifle) at 75 yards and it took me a while to find him. I could not get the neck/head shot because of a tree and almost had a heart attack when he bolted out of site.

I would shoot another deer or pig with this caliber if it was what I had with me but if I am hunting for deer/pigs I will opt for my 25/06 or 270 WSM.
 

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#22 ·
The gun although not consistently mainly because I need a trigger job has shot 3 under a half inch. Ive taken rabitts out to a 150 yds with it. I am pretty good with it although windy conditions would make a difference. I dont know if your calculations are correct but I was at the range the other day shooting a 100 yds with about a 10 mph crosswind and I saw no affects, although I was trying to time the wind, dont know if it worked or not, this is the day I put 3 under a 1/2", also found out that the winchester 46 gr HP's out shot the Rem 45gr HP's

which neck shot are you refering too ?
The one pic showing the exit is the back of the neck coming in from the throat patch.
The big buck pic entry was on the throat patch with no exit.
 
#27 ·
I was asking about the exit wound on that spike. Looks like 3 separate holes separated by skin. So if it went in at the throat, and exited on the back of the neck, looks like it must have split into 3 different signigicant pieces. Pretty impressive.

By the way if your handi rifle shoots 1/2" don't ever sell it, because it's probably the only one in existence that will do that. To really classify a gun's MOA however, you really should shoot at least a 5 shot group- that's not me saying that, but the hard core benchrest guys, and remember it's center to center. When I was a gun wholesaler, that handi rifle was one of my favorites to sell to dealers. Great little gun for the money.

I can't tell you how many loads I have worked up that had a fantastic 3 or even 4 shot group, but the 5th was way out. I couldn't blame it on a "flyer" either, because I always repeat a load like that at least once, and it's amazing how many times, especially with Barnes bullets, that I consistently get that one flyer, and eventually discard that load.

THE JAMMER

The gun although not consistently mainly because I need a trigger job has shot 3 under a half inch. Ive taken rabitts out to a 150 yds with it. I am pretty good with it although windy conditions would make a difference. I dont know if your calculations are correct but I was at the range the other day shooting a 100 yds with about a 10 mph crosswind and I saw no affects, although I was trying to time the wind, dont know if it worked or not, this is the day I put 3 under a 1/2", also found out that the winchester 46 gr HP's out shot the Rem 45gr HP's

which neck shot are you refering too ?
The one pic showing the exit is the back of the neck coming in from the throat patch.
The big buck pic entry was on the throat patch with no exit.
 
#28 ·
Good eye, It does seem like it left 3 exits, cant tell for sure but thats exactly what I thought. I understand about 5 shot grouping and the gun aint going to do it. But I did get three dam near touching, 2 were. But it will consistenly riddle the bulls eye, the bulls eyes is what, 1 or 2" ? theres a little unconsistency with it but I am waiting to get a trigger job, nobody around me wants to do it, seems all they want to do is remingtons you know the ones that all you have to do is turn some screws.
The trigger on it sucks bad, it has a very very hard pull.
This gun did out shoot two T/C,s one in 7-08 and one in .243
 
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